Daddy isn’t coming back • Hacker News Board

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#341

Post by ncmncm » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #324

ncmncm wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way, still, to determine which of a mess of conditions you have, all called depression, is to see which, if any, medication seems to help. It is as if you present with a broken bone, but they have to try splinting one after another until they hit on the broken one. And, you might actually have more than one. And, some doctors have a favorite bone, and won't try the others. Try to imagine a Random Controlled…

> why you are always seeing articles insisting, idiotically, that RCTs prove depression medications are no better than placebo You mean Kirsch & Kirsch 1997? Like, that particular study found a really, really small effect in the data submitted to the FDA (so the data chosen by the pharma companies). Even this went away when they used placebos with side effects. More recent work has suggested that they work for severe…

Pharma companies demonstrating that they are no better at impossible things than anybody else does not tell you anything new. Or, did you have a point?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#342

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:32 AM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

>This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer".

As long as we keep rewarding it by pressing the "rightthink" button when we see it it will keep happening, just like every other cheap gesture that appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#343

Post by themacguffinman » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

strken wrote: post #332

sneak wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is a human right. Interfering with someone's basic right to self-determination is absolutely despicable, no matter how ill the person is.

I agree with this in the abstract, but someone's right to self-determination isn't being infringed if 99% of the time they don't want to do something and you stop them from doing it in the 1%. This is particularly true if they call you during the bad 1% and directly ask you to stop them from doing the thing.

Uh yes it is being infringed. If I steal money from you against your will that one time, would you be okay with it on account of the fact that you willingly gave me money 99 other times? I've never heard of rights being only applicable 99% of the time.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#344

Post by MauranKilom » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:35 AM UTC

bhelkey wrote: post #202

MauranKilom wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's fine. Societies can only function if the yield from the people it invested in is higher than the investment. This is why socialized healthcare is tricky. If you invest too much, you might be wasting resources and endangering all of your society. If you invest too little, you might be leaving people who would otherwise be productive once the investment is made. This is quite evidently not how most sociali…

>> This is quite evidently not how most socialized healthcare systems work. This is how socialized healthcare systems work. In an ideal world, everyone would get the healthcare they needed whatever the cost. We live in a world with finite resources. A single payer healthcare system is not free from these constraints. The British socialized healthcare system for example will allocate up to $25K-$40K to buy a year of h…

> The British socialized healthcare system for example will allocate up to $25K-$40K to buy a year of healthy life.

"a year of healthy life" != "a productive member of society"

GP talks about "yield" from people as a measure for whether to help someone, which is decidedly different from Qaly. Yes, healthcare puts a price on life (it has to). No, that price does not primarily derive from the productivity of that individual.

You could """optimize""" society by spending more on healthcare for able-bodied than for "unproductive" people, but walk too far along that road and you get euthanasia.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#345

Post by fsloth » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:40 AM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Have you experienced this process? There is a very good point why everyone has learned the "get help" mantra. There is only one suicide you need to do, and game is over. If that can be averted with quick intervention (as often is the case) then all the better.

Interventions cannot help all suicidal persons, but being acutely suicidal means one should get help _now_. It's exactly the same thing as a with a stroke or other imminent medical emergency.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#346

Post by ehnto » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:41 AM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #336

KaiserPro wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is from the UK, so we should be clear about consequences for the UK audience. The Samaritans hotline (a general distress helpline) is there to listen. Nothing else. They do not provide treatment, judgement or the like. Sometimes that is enough. More importantly its anonymous. You will not be sectioned by phoning them To be sectioned (ie detained against your will), you _have_ to be assessed by a doctor w…

Do you still collect your normal pay while being sectioned in the UK? If not, may as well have been fired…

The UK also has welfare, depending on how high flying your finances currently are, you may not even find yourself falling that far down the ladder. Obviously not great, and non-trivial, but it's a much softer rock bottom than it could be.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#347

Post by laputan_machine » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:42 AM UTC

trevyn wrote: post #286

cloudedcordial wrote: post #247

A friend's acquintance has been mentally ill for the last 10 years. They lost their spouse, their job, their car ... everything! They've been gradually increasingly incoherent in their speech over time. They've been resisting treatments. We are not doctors and won't armchair diagnose them, but we figured out something was wrong. We called a hotline for mental health services trying to see how non-family could help. T…

Have you offered a free apartment where they can live alone?

What world do you live in where an average person can afford this?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#348

Post by mkl » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

themacguffinman wrote: post #327

Barrin92 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it's not tautological at all. There are categories of suicide that are clearly defensible, like euthanasia for end of life patients who have made the decision that any quality of life is irredeemably lost, for example. But the 38 year old husband, the subject of the article, who was in an unstable mental state to the point where his wife felt threatened and left for the safety of their children was certainly not…

Ok then: if the 38yo husband took his increasingly unaffordable meds of choice and told you in a period of lucidity that he wants to die rather than suffer a lifetime of violent psychosis, drug-induced delirium and likely debt, or as you might call it "any quality of life is irredeemably lost", would you let him? Do you have another excuse for why he still cannot make that choice for himself, why he will never be abl…

> increasingly unaffordable meds

Where did you get that idea? This happened in the UK, which has a public health system.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#349

Post by zoelow » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Feeling obliged to leave my story here:

Three years ago I made a plan to take my own life. Instead of pushing through I contacted a local suicide hotline, it was completely anonymous. I just talked for a bit, but that little moment helped me to find the courage to talk to a family member and that led me to go into therapy which I completed a few months ago.

Initially I was very scared telling my therapist about being suicidal, exactly sketching those horror scenarios. But when I finally talked about it, nothing happened. I remained into complete control of my own therapy the whole period. It helped me turn my life around and I'm incredibly happy I took the leap of faith to start talking about it.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#350

Post by DanBC » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:59 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #309

jolux wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite as simple as that. One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. This suggests that peoples' propensity to commit suicide is at least somewhat dependent on their environment. Given that, do you want to make their environment more or less likely to cause them to commit suicide? I'm in the latter category. As for the concern about basic rights,…

> One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. Is this actually true? I know it's said quite often, but there are countries with much much higher suicide rates where firearms aren't nearly as ubiquitous. Eg Lithuania.

> I know it's said quite often, but there are countries with much much higher suicide rates where firearms aren't nearly as ubiquitous. Eg Lithuania.

The rates in the US are high because of access to guns. It's well understood in public health that easy access to means and methods is one of the factors driving high rates of death.

The rates in Lithuania are high because of a number of other factors -- high alcohol misuse probably being important. Also, there are plenty of guns in Lithuania, and firearms are one of the most frequently used methods.