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Daddy isn’t coming back

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Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#321

Post by 2-718-281-828 »

garbagetime wrote: post #232
codingdave wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were not suicidal. Not passively, definitely not actively. The needs of the actively suicidal are not the same as someone who is unhappy and just calling to check the experience. I don't know if you've ever been around someone who is actively suicidal, but it is a completely different state of mind than normal interactions. What they need is not a connection or a therapy session to talk them down - that comes lat…

Being suicidal just means that you are at imminent risk of committing suicide. It isn't necessary to be in a completely different state of mind than normal for this to be the case.

Yes, most people who are acutely suicidal probably wouldn't even bother calling a hotline. You call the hotline when you start to get an unsettling feeling that you might be out to hurt yourself but didn't decide, yet. For me this is obvious. Suicide hotlines are probably mostly just an excuse by the health system so they can state "we gave it a try".

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#322

Post by blitzar »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #273
sneak wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is a human right. Interfering with someone's basic right to self-determination is absolutely despicable, no matter how ill the person is.

What if that self-determination is a fleeting thought?

Plea insanity as a defense?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#323

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

macksd wrote: post #255
anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

One of the many things needing overhauling in our mental health system. I avoided seeking help for a long time because I was interested in jobs that would likely require government security clearances, and (I don't know how true this is) I had heard from multiple sources that a history of seeking help for mental health issues may disqualify you. Which is a little backwards in practice. If there's an issue I want to a…

> the process of trying to take advantage of my company's resources like paying for short-term counseling, etc. was incredibly frustrating.

If you can afford it at all, it can make a lot of sense to do this privately, to avoid a lot of this.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#324

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

ncmncm wrote: post #317
ayngg wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best part is the dance you do when looking for a therapist where you try to say you really need help, but you have to temper that severity by saying that you aren't in such bad shape that you are suicidal for fear that they commit you to protocol or something. In reality mental healthcare feels like only a slight step up from antiquated methods from days long gone. Trying the medication roulette is like s…

The only way, still, to determine which of a mess of conditions you have, all called depression, is to see which, if any, medication seems to help. It is as if you present with a broken bone, but they have to try splinting one after another until they hit on the broken one. And, you might actually have more than one. And, some doctors have a favorite bone, and won't try the others. Try to imagine a Random Controlled…

> why you are always seeing articles insisting, idiotically, that RCTs prove depression medications are no better than placebo

You mean Kirsch & Kirsch 1997? Like, that particular study found a really, really small effect in the data submitted to the FDA (so the data chosen by the pharma companies). Even this went away when they used placebos with side effects.

More recent work has suggested that they work for severe depression, which is great but the trouble is that the vast majority of people with a diagnosis of depression don't have MDD (major depressive disorder).

I do agree that mental health is in it's leeches phase right now, and I am deeply concerned for people who end up having to engage with this system.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#325

Post by Tuna-Fish »

jolux wrote: post #260
anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Man, what. Psychiatrists have to commit you if they think you're an immediate danger to yourself. I'm sure shitty ones do it in situations where they shouldn't, but speaking as someone who has actually experienced being suicidal, my psychiatrist was the only person I actually fully trusted to help me get what I needed. Maybe I'm just lucky to have ended up with psychs who will take on more risk to avoid having to com…

It mostly depends on the state.

The fundamental problem there is that plenty of people have won lawsuits against hospitals/doctors when their loved one mentioned suicide in some way, was not involuntarily committed and then proceeded to kill themself. The amounts involved in those lawsuits tend to be high. In contrast, very few people have won lawsuits against hospitals/doctors who involuntarily committed them when they probably shouldn't have been, and even if they do, the monetary harm that they can recoup is probably pretty small.

This results in very perverse incentives for the institution. In your case either the people involved in your care had a very high personal risk tolerance, or it happened in a state where there is less precedent on handing over megabucks to the families of people who commit suicide.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#326

Post by Dylan16807 »

taylorius wrote: post #319
Barrin92 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it's not tautological at all. There are categories of suicide that are clearly defensible, like euthanasia for end of life patients who have made the decision that any quality of life is irredeemably lost, for example. But the 38 year old husband, the subject of the article, who was in an unstable mental state to the point where his wife felt threatened and left for the safety of their children was certainly not…

But why doesn't "not being in command of one's mental faculties" qualify as a valid reason to want to end one's life? If that is ongoing, and unlikely to ever improve, I can well imagine wanting to off myself, rather than continue within that nightmare.

> If that is ongoing, and unlikely to ever improve

Well, that's an enormous 'if'. Yeah, maybe it's different in that case. But it's not the common case.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#327

Post by themacguffinman »

Barrin92 wrote: post #306
themacguffinman wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How wonderfully tautological this is: those with suicidal tendencies are deemed incapable of making the choice due to "mental illness". How can you tell if they're mentally ill? You look for symptoms of course, symptoms like "they have suicidal tendencies".

no, it's not tautological at all. There are categories of suicide that are clearly defensible, like euthanasia for end of life patients who have made the decision that any quality of life is irredeemably lost, for example. But the 38 year old husband, the subject of the article, who was in an unstable mental state to the point where his wife felt threatened and left for the safety of their children was certainly not…

Ok then: if the 38yo husband took his increasingly unaffordable meds of choice and told you in a period of lucidity that he wants to die rather than suffer a lifetime of violent psychosis, drug-induced delirium and likely debt, or as you might call it "any quality of life is irredeemably lost", would you let him? Do you have another excuse for why he still cannot make that choice for himself, why he will never be able to make that choice for himself?

First you said they can't do it because they're mentally incapable of making the choice, now you're discussing whether a suicide is "clearly defensible". It doesn't matter if a suicide is "clearly defensible" or not. People don't have to defend their choices to you. That's the point of having the freedom to choose.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#328

Post by bildung »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #315
Aerroon wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. Is this actually true? I know it's said quite often, but there are countries with much much higher suicide rates where firearms aren't nearly as ubiquitous. Eg Lithuania.

Or Japan...

Japan has a bit lower rates than the US. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.SUIC.P5?most_rec...

In general one usually gets more meaningful results when a) comparing geographically and/or culturally similar countries for things like these. E.G the UK has half the mortality rate of the US, Canada and the EU have 2/3 of the US rate. And b) compare trends, not single values. E.G. US rates are rising (which I as a layman would interpret as speaking against the firearms thesis), while the rates of Lithuana and Japan are falling.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#329

Post by nickkell »

cloudedcordial wrote: post #247

A friend's acquintance has been mentally ill for the last 10 years. They lost their spouse, their job, their car ... everything! They've been gradually increasingly incoherent in their speech over time. They've been resisting treatments. We are not doctors and won't armchair diagnose them, but we figured out something was wrong. We called a hotline for mental health services trying to see how non-family could help. T…

A relative of mine was clearly mentally ill, although was never diagnosed (he would never seek treatment). He hoarded garbage in his house until it was uninhabitable. Finally he ended up begging on the streets, until about a year ago when he passed away partly due to pneumonia.

It was a struggle to watch, and to repeat the same tired conversations with him about seeking help. In this case too, there was nothing that social services could, or would, undertake to help if he didn't ask for it personally.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#330

Post by garmaine »

likecharges wrote: post #253
anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Perhaps this is a regional difference, but you might be confusing the suicide hotline with a petition for involuntary admission. The suicide hotline provides someone to talk to. The person might not even know your name or address. What you’ve described is involuntary admission. Any adult can petition for another person to be brought to a hospital and evaluated, but the hospital decides if the person is admitted and/o…

I think the person you are replying to is claiming that the hotline operator will initiate the process for involuntary admission, or at least start a chain of events (e.g. calling local PD for a welfare check) that leads to that outcome.

(No idea if that is true, but it is the claim.)

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