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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#341

Post by _ptgt »

seppin wrote: post #336
_ptgt wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like mainlanders every really had a choice. Their own protests were crushed with tanks in 1989 and they've been relentlessly propagandized on everything from the papers to the schools to social media since then. I have zero doubts such strong propaganda efforts over decades would yield similar results on the vast majority Americans had it happened here.

Writing off the surrender of mainlanders of all their rights to "effective propaganda" is undercutting the very real sense of grievance and fear/hatred of foreigners already present.

But much of the canonical mainland political belief system is incompatible with rational thought and generally shared moral principles. And mainlanders are obviously not any less rational or moral on most topics.

Mainlanders may not like it to hear it, and I'll even go as far as to say the best strategy for discussing politics with mainlanders is to not directly tell them this, but their political canon is anomalously full of holes that are exposed when explored in any significant depth (yes I've been through this process with mainlanders).

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#342

Post by AnimalMuppet »

iamaelephant wrote: post #152
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s

Are you arguing that it's fine when Westerners do it, therefore it's fine when the Chinese do it? I'd argue it's not fine when either does it.

Oh, no. It's definitely not fine when either does it. And my intent (which appears to not have been expressed well) was primarily to criticize the Chinese for doing it, while also acknowledging the fault of the West in the same behavior.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#343

Post by johnrgrace »

dogma1138 wrote: post #325
mitfahrener wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem to be mainland/CCP's fault. The big real estate developers (the Lee, Kwoks families, etc) owns much of the properties. Why is mainland China the target for inequality and housing issue to blame? I have no stake in this fight, just curious.

No one blamed mainland here but I have a very strong suspicion that you have stake in this fight given that your entire 5 months comment history here is about China related topics.

I also notice that poster is really focused on only one of the two chinas.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#344

Post by aussiegreenie »

China controls ALL CHINESES LANGUAGE media excluding The Epoch Times controlled by Falun Gong.

China uses both carrots and sticks to enforce the views of the CCP. The Chinese government will arrest your entire extended family if you undertake "political" actions, that is, try and use the normal Chinese laws to ensure your rights.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#345

Post by cameronc56 »

yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #213
jumelles wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage. Which of those things would make you worry, and why?

#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police behaviour. Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order and incentivize rioting as t…

If I had to guess, it is not an inquiry into standard riot police procedure.

2 days ago a video surfaced of two hong kong police officers torturing a 62 year old man: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong...

Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior?

> incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward

what evidence of rioting is there? afaik these protests have been peaceful.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#346

Post by Nasrudith »

RightMillennial wrote: post #323
Nasrudith wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!

You're off by an order of magnitude. Trump received 62.98 m votes while Clinton received 65.85 m. That's a difference of 2.87 m votes not 13 million. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia... )

Ah I mixes it up with the bizzare 13 million illegal immigrant Hillary voters claims - assuming that was the loss margin he was trying to delegitimize.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#347

Post by junar »

throwaway3e2tr wrote: post #195
PavlovsCat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I…

I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.

Macau's position has been solidly pro-Beijing for over 50 years. I wouldn't understate the political differences here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#348

Post by ambyra »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

This person believes what he wrote and is not a pawn of the chinese government.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#349

Post by peteretep »

seppin wrote: post #333
peteretep wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same amount as the vast majority of of people in China: 0

The millions in Xinjiang would like a word. Why do you spend your free time defending a brutal autocracy on the internet?

Because the truth is more important than making up lies to feel good about yourself? Also, let's talk about the "Land of the Free" for a moment...

China's incarceration rate -- for crime -- is 118 per 100,000, for 1,649,804 total. Let's add the DOD claim that an extra 3m are held in re-education camps, and take that to 4.5m, which takes us to 308 per hundred thousand. The US figure is _655_, disproportionately poor people.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#350

Post by peteretep »

pas wrote: post #274
peteretep wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.

One success/failure story does not mean much. There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on. China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they reinvest that. India never had such…

> don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and other deep rooted inequality problems ... China spent no time with such sentimental stuff.

You might be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

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