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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

81–90 of 376 posts

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#81

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For exa…

You don't "jar" people into Learning anything.

That is why the late night comedian brigade and the bombastic news reader class (don't call them journalists) have never managed to change anyone's minds, irrespective of how many years of likes, laughs and claps they get from their own fan clubs. It's true of the left and the right.

Jaring (blaming/shaming/guilt triping) or shaking people up is not a teaching technique that works.

And you have to think of it as Teaching. Good teachers don't just shake people up. They know Learning takes Time, A LOT OF TIME. And different subjects require a deep understanding of how much time. Without a sense of that it easy to screw up the learning process and produce outcomes that don't make sense.

You can throw a baby into water, and some have an anti-drowning reflex, that can trigger some learning (about swimming). But many don't and you end up with dead babies. The tragic Story of misguided teaching practices, doesn't usually end there. Those who don't end up with dead babies, easily fool themselves into thinking that they have some great insight into teaching. And they apply it to other subjects, like throwing babies into metaphorical Tiger cages.

In this particular case involving China, you don't attack/blame/judge your friends or hold them accountable or guilt trip them or shame them. That won't produce any learning. Guaranteed. Expect only defensiveness and counter attacks.

It you really truly want to spark learning you just point at the articles and STOP. No blaming/shaming/guilt tripping/judgement passing/sarcasm/correcting/fact checking/finding logical holes etc. And then give it time. Learning how to handle Tigers takes time. Reset that expectation and watch the seeds planted grow.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#82

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

My girlfriend is the same, this Hong Kong issue has been quite the discussion point whenever something news worthy happens. I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs has been swayed by western propaganda but she believes China is not in the wrong here, she knows loosely about 1984 and is aware of what's happening with muslims but with HK she and a lot of my other mainland friends think the protesters are destroying everything, who knows how their opinions shape if China decides to start cleansing HK but it's interesting to see how deep this ideology is rooted and it's even more interesting to see her opinions change the longer she lives in a democratic country (like she tried talking about Xi Jinping to her mainland friends but they told her to cut it out since she forgot about the lack of free speech over there).

I think everyone has different definitions of freedom, some might think it only means to be physically free but lack of free speech and lack of proper human rights are a-ok because they don't know any better.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#83
post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

I think Sapolsky's Behave also had a good insight here (not his, just referenced) about the importance of the general culture of a region -- namely whether it's a Collectivist or Individualist. This simple dichotomy can explain a great many misunderstandings, talkings-past-each-other and (interestingly) quite a few differences in moral judgements.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#84

Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…

There is a lot of nuance there. Some soldiers were killed by protesters, but it wasn’t the student protesters rather beijingers who were pissed about the PLA coming into town (the PKU students were already mostly back in their dorms by this point). The soldiers also weren’t armed, this being early and back then they were afraid to just give the soldiers weapons (not all of the PLA agreed with the crackdown). They eventually brought in troops from further away garrisons fully armed that were less sympathetic to the protesters (local garrisons back then were staffed with soldiers from Beijing).

So your colleague wasn’t completely lying, but the truth belies a lot more intrigue. I think this is all in the wiki article.

The biggest problem (at least from the CPC’s point of view) is that the PRC completely lacked non lethal riot suppression capabilities. They literally had nothing in between just standing there unarmed and full on military assault. Afterwards, they built up the PAP (people’s armed police) very quickly, and you can see them often practicing in Beijing.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#85
post #41

Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese and would like everyone to have universal suffrage. I've seen repeatedly both from people in mainland and "westerners" to assume the people of Hong Kong want independence from mainland China but this is not true. The majority of people (protesters) didn't even mention this in their 5 demands[0]. [0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-fulf...

I'd really worry for HK if the government agrees to all five points.

> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage.

Which of those things would make you worry, and why?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#86
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

"I can't imagine any other government could do better." Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it?

[deleted]

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#87

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

I wonder what a person from Taiwan might think

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#88

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

Otherwise "smart" people can be completely boneheaded politically if they actively choose to be unread about politics, current affairs, history, the arts etc.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw plenty of examples that westerners who do the same...it's just not reported in western medias.

The OC was being sarcastic. The USA is the most entitled country! USA citizens even call the country America or ‘Merica’ as if they aren’t part of one of two continents called America (if you’re in the USA then the two continents are North and South). Which means every person trying to cross the USA border is AMERICAN!!!

Why the down votes? Which statement is false?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#90
post #41

Disclaimer: I'm mainland Chinese and would like everyone to have universal suffrage. I've seen repeatedly both from people in mainland and "westerners" to assume the people of Hong Kong want independence from mainland China but this is not true. The majority of people (protesters) didn't even mention this in their 5 demands[0]. [0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/14/five-demands-must-fulf...

I'd really worry for HK if the government agrees to all five points.

Why? None of the demands violate the Joint Declaration or Basic Law.
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