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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#301

Post by roboys »

dragonsh wrote: post #268
khc wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> British were in Hong Kong for 150 years and only granted enough freedom to Hong Kong to align with their own interest I don't want to speculate why the British did what they did, and that's not the point > Hong Kong never had democracy including during British time. If you have any written evidence in law or regulation on the contrary let me know. So far I couldn't find any evidence except the "Basic Law" which gua…

> I don't want to speculate why the British did what they did, and that's not the point There is no need to speculate, history offers a clear answer. I can understand that it's hard to swallow bitter truth. > Democracy and freedom I have voted myself and know how the system worked before Chris Patten and afterwards. It was a from caged zoo turned to open zoo not really democracy. Regarding freedom Britain offered BNO…

> I don't want to speculate why the British did what they did, and that's not the point

The historical record is very clear and malice is at the top of the menu.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#302

Post by roboys »

pimmen wrote: post #255
markus_zhang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

If a country is not ready for Democracy with the necessary amount of development/safeguards, this can be a disaster.

Like installing an internet connected Windows XP on your network with no updates, it introduces tremendous attack vectors that established actors/economies (UK, France, US, Germany) will be all to happy to exploit.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#303

Post by roboys »

schuke wrote: post #270
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

They protest not because they don't have money, but because Beijing is essentially taking their money away by eating into their legal system, which is ultimately what makes HK competitive.

China decolonizing and unifying. Anyone aligned with the wrong incentives (undermining/sabotaging China) will get put-right shortly.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#304

Post by roboys »

pas wrote: post #274
peteretep wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.

One success/failure story does not mean much. There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on. China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they reinvest that. India never had such…

Democracies are not as agile as they used to seem. The ability to move with conviction on short notice is an edge that the Chinese government has over Western nations.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#305

Post by Nasrudith »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #229
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

>I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Economic concerns elected Trump.

Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#306

Post by Nasrudith »

cassbot wrote: post #105
ccccppppp wrote: post #25

Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…

As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

It is the cover up - not the crime essentially. China shuts down stock markets when they come up with shared dates to Tiananmen Square. The US teaches it in textbooks and acknowledges impacts like radicalizing domestic terrorism groups. If not for premature detonation of an apartment it would have lead to another school massacre of a ROTC in retaliation.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#307

Post by Nasrudith »

yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #213
jumelles wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage. Which of those things would make you worry, and why?

#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police behaviour. Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order and incentivize rioting as t…

So accountability is a non-starter? That is quite telling of why they are protesting in the first place.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#308

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

throwaway3e2tr wrote: post #195
PavlovsCat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I…

I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.

Or is it because they can move to Portugal if they want to, thus feel like they have an escape?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#309

Post by tomhoward »

100100010001 wrote: post #199
100100010001 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting anonymously without justification seems cowardly.

I’ve got five the majority are from the USA.

I'm not from the USA, I've just been using this site for over 10 years and I'm familiar with the guidelines and norms that ask us not to engage in nationalistic battle ("flamewar topics"), or use all-caps for emphasis, or to complain about downvotes (which seems particularly apt when the likely reason for those downvotes is that multiple guidelines have been broken).

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#310

Post by EdwardDiego »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #228
khc wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Almost everything in these sentences are wrong. It's not just the young people who are protesting in Hong Kong, and most people in Hong Kong have never been born into wealth. There's a great divide between the weal…

Relative wealth then. HK has long had a GDP per capita on par with western nations. Versus China which has had a GDP per capita on par with developing nations until fairly recently.

You're talking about the territory that formerly boasted the Kowloon Walled City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

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