Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

cnet.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 367 posts

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#341

Post by asveikau »

criley2 wrote: post #260
hugi wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Iceland, if the owner of a rented apartment would request key access to his tenants apartment, well… That would be considered "batshit crazy". But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.

America is not authoritarian so much as "pro-ownership" The idea that the owner of a building couldn't perform maintenance as necessary is shocking!

I disagree with you. It is absolutely authoritarianism at the root of these issues. (As an American who has been observing this for some time.)

A few hours ago I was summarizing this article to someone in person and concluded with "but this country is very authoritarian", the implication being that the letter and spirit of tennant laws are not widely known, and the more authoritarian cultural norms, biased towards landlords, end up as the de facto rules.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#342

Post by OkGoDoIt »

Beldin wrote: post #280
OkGoDoIt wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that many smart locks nowadays have flat capacitive-based keypads, which even I as an able-bodied adult have issues pressing accurately. I used to live in a place with a main door that was a smart lock and I loved it, now I have to carry keys again which is super annoying. But one time the battery died while the landlord was out of town, which meant I couldn’t get in my building for hours until his…

But one time the battery died while the landlord was out of town, which meant I couldn’t get in my building for hours until his friend was able to find and bring over the physical key backup. Why not get your phone charged somewhere? Neighbors, a shop, ... surely someone could lend you an outlet + charger for 30 mins?

Sorry for the confusion, this was a smartlock that used a keypad. No phone integration. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a smartlock in person that uses a smartphone to unlock, although I've heard they exist.

Anyway the unit in question took 4 AA batteries which needed to be replaced every 6 months or so. The batteries of the lock itself died earlier than expected. Apparently the wifi connection to the front building door was bad and that caused the battery life to drain significantly faster than advertised.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#343

Post by sakopov »

mehrdadn wrote: post #12

What happens to such a smart lock if it loses access to electric power (or internet access if it needs one)? Is there a key backup? Do you get locked out of your home if you don't have said backup key with you?

I just recently had this happen to me and I did get locked out when the battery in the lock died. It happened at 11 at night when I came back from a long trip and my landlord was not responding to calls. After about 10 minutes of Googling I figured out that there are 2 prongs at the bottom of the lock that you can connect a 9-volt battery to to give the lock temporary source of power. I went out and got a 9v battery and unlocked the door with my fob while holding the battery terminals on the 2 prongs.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#344

Post by mehrdadn »

sakopov wrote: post #343
mehrdadn wrote: post #12

What happens to such a smart lock if it loses access to electric power (or internet access if it needs one)? Is there a key backup? Do you get locked out of your home if you don't have said backup key with you?

I just recently had this happen to me and I did get locked out when the battery in the lock died. It happened at 11 at night when I came back from a long trip and my landlord was not responding to calls. After about 10 minutes of Googling I figured out that there are 2 prongs at the bottom of the lock that you can connect a 9-volt battery to to give the lock temporary source of power. I went out and got a 9v battery…

I guess it's better than nothing but that still sounds awful...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#345

Post by viraptor »

bilbo0s wrote: post #224
est31 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> charged, working smartphone Not just that, you also have to install a proprietary piece of software onto the phone from a third party and accept their TOS. > can provide other people with a pseudo-legitimate access to it I think in the news story the smart locks were only installed on the front door not on the doors to the homes. If the landlord installed them on the doors for the homes as well, that would be very…

> and accept their TOS... Money quote. People aren't thinking ahead here about what this opens you up to with respect to privacy loss. Think about the permissions on your phone such an app could ask for in the future. Now consider that if you don't grant them, you could potentially not get into your apartment. Smart locks are a cancer. We should cut them out early.

> Smart locks are a cancer. We should cut them out early.

Baby with bathwater. Smart locks are useful. Bad implementations are bad. You can have one with both a normal key lock and a card which uses a standard RFID tag rather than a specific app. They're both convenient and failsafe.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#346

Post by Gibbon1 »

flensortow wrote: post #308
intopieces wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

> (2) The claim that a 93 year old lacked the dexterity to operate the smart lock is spurious. A physical key requires more dexterity than pushing numbers on a keypad. In this case absolutely not. I've used the lock in question. It does not have physical keys, and the keypad is non-responsive, and round in shape (think rotary phone). Every person I know who has used the keypad has had trouble both on their first and…

I'm also thinking a 93 year old with bad eyes. My grandmother in her late 80's could thread a sewing needle by feel.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#347

Post by Gibbon1 »

rcthompson wrote: post #197
criley2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI for Americans, it is generally illegal to change your locks and not provide the owner (or agent aka landlord) with a copy. It's their property, not yours, and depending on state/lease they have the right to have the locks drilled/replaced at YOUR expense because you are not allowed to lock an owner out of their property. There are only a few US states which have laws permitting tenants from changing locks and not…

I live in CA, and my lease has a clause specifically prohibiting changing/adding locks to the doors. I wonder if the CA law invalidates this clause. It's not a problem for this lease because my landlord is very hands-off - I've never even met them, only communicated via email. But I'll definitely be paying attention to clauses like this in the future, especially if there's a "smart" lock on the unit.

Most leases are just canned boiler plate filled with completely unenforceable clauses.

A lease prohibiting changing the locks would give the landlords insurance agent palpitations.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#348

Post by daveFNbuck »

sachdevap wrote: post #274
daveFNbuck wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way that it seems like someone who could use a key could also use a keypad, it seems that someone who could use a keypad could also use a smartphone. At least one of these two logical steps is broken.

I don't think so. Someone who can use a keypad may have the manual dexterity to use a smartphone, but not necessarily be comfortable using a smartphone for this purpose. I have known people who are comfortable with pressing buttons on an old flip phone, but simply do not get how to use a smartphone. Grasping technology is about more than just manual dexterity.

The claim is that his inability to use a smartphone is physical. I'm taking that at face value because I don't have any other details.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#349

Post by fian »

silversconfused wrote: post #336
rhizome wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know any 93 year olds? You might want to account for the lifestyle impact of switching from physical keys to stuff you have to memorize.

Arthritic fingers don't aim well. Keys are somewhat self-centering and easier to operate without good accuracy.

Memory also degrades with age. Many people in their 80's and 90's start experiencing memory loss. My 85 year old father sometimes forgets the route to drive to the shopping center he has been driving to for decades. Relying on elderly people to remember a keycode or operate a smartphone is not a good strategy.

I suspect there is a certain amount of muscle memory involved in using keys. I don't even think "which key do I need" when locking/unlocking my doors, my hands automatically select the correct key.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#350

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN