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Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

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Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#251

Post by sachdevap »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #236
peeters wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's a very material piece of the puzzle that seems intentionally buried: > Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code to get in and didn't need an app. They'd also been offered codes they could enter without a phone. Whether that's an alternative depends on the implementation. If it's a code unique to the tenant that goe…

A tenant who isn't able to operate a smartphone may also be unable to remember and/or physically enter a numeric code.

This is curious. The person is able to operate a key, but is unable to enter a physical code on a keypad? As for remembering the code, keeping a piece of paper with the code is no different from keeping a key.

To clarify my position, I am not in favor of the app for privacy reasons, and prefer the physical lock and key. But it isn't clear to me how far the dexterity argument goes.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#252

Post by sachdevap »

intopieces wrote: post #242
pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

It does look like a privacy win to me. Isn't it?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#253

Post by friedegg »

SEJeff wrote: post #182

Leslie Carhart, a relatively well known infosec community person posted about this: https://tisiphone.net/2019/01/28/security-things-to-consider... Turns out she was right... https://twitter.com/CharlesDardaman/status/11016265103336734...

I've been following her adventure in this area. She kind of had to become an expert on it quickly when her own apartment decided they were switching to one of these systems, and there was no opt-out short of moving.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#254

Post by kelnos »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #236
peeters wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's a very material piece of the puzzle that seems intentionally buried: > Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code to get in and didn't need an app. They'd also been offered codes they could enter without a phone. Whether that's an alternative depends on the implementation. If it's a code unique to the tenant that goe…

A tenant who isn't able to operate a smartphone may also be unable to remember and/or physically enter a numeric code.

Remembering can be replaced with a piece of paper with the code written on it. That's not any more onerous than being required to carry a key around.

And a key generally requires more dexterity to operate than a keypad. I think vision issues might be a valid complaint, since you can usually operate a key by feel; harder to do that with a keypad, especially in the dark.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#255

Post by intopieces »

sachdevap wrote: post #252
intopieces wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

It does look like a privacy win to me. Isn't it?

The smart lock could be operated without identification, using a code. It’s not clear to me that this code was unique per user.

This does not look like a privacy win to me. It looks like a good precedent that will aid in a privacy court battle in the future.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#256

Post by criley2 »

vraivroo wrote: post #211
School-Cotton wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on what you’re talking about?

It's not legal for landlords to enter rented homes as they please, even in America.

This is false. It's up to state law but generally speaking landlords can enter the premises without warning in case of an emergency, and can otherwise enter the premises for nearly any reason (inspection, routine maintenance, showing prospective clients, etc) with a 24 hour notice. Some states may increase that 24 hour notice to 48 hours, but yes a property owner can enter their property.

This is one of those cases where owners have rights too, and renters who want more rights should consider owning.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#257

Post by pavel_lishin »

weliketocode wrote: post #244

Note that this was just a settlement, not a 'won' case. As per me, I'll stand with the smart locks. They're better for everyone. For landlords: - change locks by adding/removing users & passcodes - tenant forgets their code in the middle of the night? Remind them of the code For tenants: - No more lost keys; just remember a simple number or use your phone Some of the anti-lock tech arguments here are just silly. Land…

Smart-locks are a non-option for observant Jews on the sabbath.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#258

Post by dang »

levosmetalo wrote: post #121
setquk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us. The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff. He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved. Who’s the bad one? Hmm Ed…

> Who’s the bad one? Hmm And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by bein…

Please don't scold people like this on HN. Threads here are for good conversation, and scolding makes conversation bad.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#259

Post by sstephant »

skrause wrote: post #66
lqet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

> At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. This is completely wrong. In Germany the apartment owner is not even allowed to keep a copy of the key unless you voluntarily give them one. I live in Germany and I also changed the lock the day I moved in and the landlord is not allow to forbid me from doing that.

Same in France. The owner has to relinquish all its means to access the appartement to the tenant.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#260

Post by criley2 »

hugi wrote: post #186
criley2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI for Americans, it is generally illegal to change your locks and not provide the owner (or agent aka landlord) with a copy. It's their property, not yours, and depending on state/lease they have the right to have the locks drilled/replaced at YOUR expense because you are not allowed to lock an owner out of their property. There are only a few US states which have laws permitting tenants from changing locks and not…

In Iceland, if the owner of a rented apartment would request key access to his tenants apartment, well… That would be considered "batshit crazy". But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.

America is not authoritarian so much as "pro-ownership"

The idea that the owner of a building couldn't perform maintenance as necessary is shocking!

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