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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#341

Post by MikkoFinell »

StavrosK wrote: post #305
MikkoFinell wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many gun-related homicides are there per year in your country?

1.5 per 100k (most of which are suicides), gun culture isn't big here.

That's why it seems a bit unreasonable to compare how the police in your country would react to how American police unfortunately reacted in this scenario. Because the situations those officers face on a daily basis is completely different. American cops can reasonably expect to regularly deal with armed and hostile psychos, unlike the cops in many other countries. Again, that's not to say that the shooting was in any way justified, but try to put yourself in the life of American police officers.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#342

Post by blattimwind »

Waterluvian wrote: post #282
kipari wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a tidbit from the Counter-Strike: Global Offensive loading screen saying that the federal GSG-9 group only has fired shots on five missions throughout their existence. Wikipedia seems to back this up with some reportedly true information[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9#Publicly_known_missions

I wonder if the GSG and other special units see the use of violence as a colossally embarassing failure. "That tactical team couldn't even do their job right and had to resort to shooting the guy."

Gunfire means high probability of failure.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#343

Post by Bud »

freedomben wrote: post #238
varjag wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

I agree. I'm far from an expert in this field, but my general observations is that we have a huge police presence in America. They are also empowered way beyond what our founders intended. That for one needs to change. It may also help if we stopped criminalizing every little thing, and giving our Environmental Protection Agency a freaking SWAT team[1]. [1]: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents…

A biased article, which does not mention any "SWAT team"—only that some gold miner was outraged that the police investigating him had handguns. Big deal.

The next substantive, impartial article from Fox News about the EPA will be the first one I've seen.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#344

Post by bryanrasmussen »

freedomben wrote: post #185
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

I missed the part where perfect decisions were required?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#345

Post by dclowd9901 »

ivanhoe wrote: post #175
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

The worst case scenario? I’m pretty sure that is the scenario that played out. Police should be prepared to die wearing the badge, with civilian casualty being an absolute last resort.

It works this way for the military. I can’t fathom why it doesn’t work this way with police.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#346

Post by leesalminen »

oh_sigh wrote: post #264
leesalminen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don’t see how calling a phone number associated with that address and seeing who picks up could hurt anything. This phone call could’ve occurred while SWAT was deploying to the scene. They only could’ve gained by doing this.

If it was real, and the hostage taker picked up, he could say everything was fine. What do you do then? Calling seems like a good idea but I'm not sure it provides any actionable information.

I said the police could only have gained from calling. You have not provided a scenario in which it would further endanger lives. Even if it didn’t provide “actionable” info, it wouldn’t hurt to try and some semblance of doubt around the veracity of the initial claims could be forwarded onto the SWAT team.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#347

Post by Bud »

trophycase wrote: post #300
rahimnathwani wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget overtime pay.

And pension.

Whatever. Also don't forget, then, the cost of living in the Bay Area (astronomical) and the difficulties of policing in Oakland (formidable).

Pension is something we should all expect. Not resent.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#348

Post by dsego »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #187
qaq wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's cut the BS US Military is facing unimaginably more dangerous situations on daily basis yet expected to obey engagements where rule often is do not fire unless fired upon. Police is not even in the top 10 list of dangerous professions in US. Situations that in most countries are handled by few police officers in US are handled by paranoid SWAT teams on armored vehicles with assault rifles in full tactical gear.

Police gunfights are typically at much closer range than the military’s. Soldiers have more armor and are often already in fortified positions when fired upon. The situations aren’t exactly comparable. Granted, combat troops probably have superior training to police.

This was across the street. Is that close? You can barely make out the victim in the body cam footage.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#349

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

DanBC wrote: post #284
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree with the rest but underpaid, no. For the Oakland Police Department, where I live, the starting salary is $69,912 to $98,088. Retirement starts at 50. For a job dealing with crime reports and disputes all day and one of the routine job hazards is being shot dead at any moment, that's hardly a particularly attractive deal. Hell, I doubt there's very many people on HN would take that job for twice the pay.

132 police died while on duty in 2016. There are 750,000 police officers in the US.

So? In 2015, there were 51,548 assaults against law enforcement officers, resulting in 14,453 injuries.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#350

Post by glenstein »

adrianN wrote: post #119
glenstein wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point about non-lethal weapons: it seems to me that we haven't yet claimed the low-hanging fruit in the US when it comes to this problem. Why not indulge the most base impulses of both silicon valley and police militarization with high tech, non lethal weapons? It will probably introduce new problems, such as even more unnecessary use of force. It addresses absolutely none of the cultural or institutional pro…

There are only "less lethal" weapons. People can very well die from being tasered for example.

And in special circumstances a butter knife could probably kill someone. But I don't think getting trapped in a continuum fallacy represents forward motion in this kind of conversation. Maybe a tazer should count as lethal and should be excluded. Let's draw the line somewhere, most definitely. But I'm not any closer to understanding whether you merely object to that example or the principle itself, and the latter is the pertinent thing.
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