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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#211

Post by ryanwaggoner »

StavrosK wrote: post #178
meri_dian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place. It completely mystifies me how people can think that people with guns were justified in fatally shooting someone with no guns . That kind of thing should just never happen, either subdue them or let them get away, why are you shooting them? What could they possibly have done, short of ran to the kitchen to get a knife and t…

The obvious answer is: because you think they ARE armed, and if you wait until they start shooting at you, it’s too late.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#212

Post by mancerayder »

znfi wrote: post #197

One thing with all of this which puzzles me as a non-American, how does the "acceptance" of people getting killed by the police fit together with the whole anti-gorvernment thing which seems fairly common in the US as well? One would think that if one does not like the government, one would be extremely upset about the gouvernment randomly killing people. But for some reason this does not seem to be the case. I guess…

One thing with all of this which puzzles me as a non-American, how does the "acceptance" of people getting killed by the police fit together with the whole anti-gorvernment thing which seems fairly common in the US as well? One would think that if one does not like the government, one would be extremely upset about the gouvernment randomly killing people. But for some reason this does not seem to be the case.

It's a good question. As a half-American with something of a background in political science, let me offer the following.

The free market liberal ideas, mixed with a sort of pioneer spirit that historically existed here (and still in much of the rural areas of the U.S.), carry with it an arguably consistent ideology:

- Independence from government in the realm of strong market regulations, price controls and so forth, particularly property rights.

- A government whose role is to minimize taxation but to protect said property rights.

It's a logical fact that you can't protect property rights without violence, due to the unequal nature of property ownership and the class system that comes from it. Historically, police start to make an appearance in such societies, as it makes more sense to have the State perform this activity than have each individual hire or join their own private militias or pay protection money to some organization.

That's the best way I can think to explain this discrepancy, which to a European sounds totally contradictory. You say you don't like the State's influence, but when the State does the worst it can do, kill citizens, you do nothing?

It has to do with free market capitalism not existing without a state having basic functions: protection from external threats at the national level, and enforcement of property rights via a legal system and an enforcer of this legal system. I.e. Police.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#213

Post by hyperpape »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #187
qaq wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's cut the BS US Military is facing unimaginably more dangerous situations on daily basis yet expected to obey engagements where rule often is do not fire unless fired upon. Police is not even in the top 10 list of dangerous professions in US. Situations that in most countries are handled by few police officers in US are handled by paranoid SWAT teams on armored vehicles with assault rifles in full tactical gear.

Police gunfights are typically at much closer range than the military’s. Soldiers have more armor and are often already in fortified positions when fired upon. The situations aren’t exactly comparable. Granted, combat troops probably have superior training to police.

These are SWAT teams. They often have military gear (http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/04/small-town-cops-get-armore...). If the problem is that they don’t have enough armor, let’s get them it.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#214

Post by grafporno »

dekhn wrote: post #52
clarkevans wrote: post #25

The principal issue is: why was an unarmed man shot on his doorstep by the police. This focus conveniently absolves the police of wrong doing; e.g. "if someone didn't call in a problem, no one would be dead".

Ostensibly because he reached for his waistband instead of immediately putting up his hands.

Having seen the video, it looked more like he was trying to shield his eyes from the light the police was shining directly at him _from across the street_. I don't know why this isn't reported more accurately, they shot the guy from what looks like a good 20-30 meters away.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#215

Post by FireBeyond »

coldtea wrote: post #200
hackerbob wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way things are going if a SWAT team rolled up to my house ( I know this is going to sound silly). I'd call 911 and have them on speaker phone coaching me through it. Most people are not trained to handled these situations properly and they will be nervous and start slipping up which a not well trained or inexperienced officer may wrongly interpret as suspicious/dangerous. If I am truly innocent then perhaps I am…

> The way things are going if a SWAT team rolled up to my house ( I know this is going to sound silly). I'd call 911 and have them on speaker phone coaching me through it. Who said you're going to get any chance to call anybody? They could just as easily break into your house shouting and pointing guns...

Right, most of these calls are designed to provoke no-knock forcible entry... "hostages actively being threatened", "domestic violence in progress", etc.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#216

Post by pfortuny »

jeffdavis wrote: post #184
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

What is the appropriate response in this kind of situation?

None. That situation should not occur, at all. Unless you can handle it, in which case you should be a drug lord or similar.

It is a travesty of the Rule of Law.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#217

Post by MikkoFinell »

StavrosK wrote: post #178
meri_dian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place. It completely mystifies me how people can think that people with guns were justified in fatally shooting someone with no guns . That kind of thing should just never happen, either subdue them or let them get away, why are you shooting them? What could they possibly have done, short of ran to the kitchen to get a knife and t…

It mystifies me why you believe anyone thinks the shooting was justified. Literally NO ONE has said that. Please try to engage with the actual debate instead of making up strawmen to attack.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#218

Post by rahimnathwani »

CalChris wrote: post #174
username223 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged. Unfortunately, as a US civilian you need to be smart about de-escalating encounters with underpaid rage-monster cops with something close to legal immunity. Your goal should be to avoid injury or death until you can get to a lawyer.

I agree with the rest but underpaid, no. For the Oakland Police Department, where I live, the starting salary is $69,912 to $98,088. Retirement starts at 50. This job requires a GED.

Don't forget overtime pay.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#219

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

username223 wrote: post #147
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

> This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged. Unfortunately, as a US civilian you need to be smart about de-escalating encounters with underpaid rage-monster cops with something close to legal immunity. Your goal should be to avoid injury or death until you can get to a lawyer.

The police, particularly in the US, seem to be quite fond of shooting people who are laying face down on the ground, or otherwise clearly not a threat. It isn't so clear how we are expected to act in an effort to reach the goal of avoiding death during a police encounter.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#220

Post by varjag »

freedomben wrote: post #185
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.
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