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Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

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Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#341

Post by Pxtl »

mindcrime wrote: post #325
tibbon wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best (like absolute best) football|basketball|baseball players in the world make approximately what per game?

Well, defensive end Olivier Vernon just signed a deal with the New York Giants which will pay him an average annual salary of around 17 million dollars. And there was a huge signing bonus as well.[1] NFL seasons are 16 regular season games, plus 4 pre-season games. And then there are the playoffs, which a given team might or might not make or advance in. All told, given that the signing bonus is amortized over all th…

Football is kind of an oddcase since it the most popular sport in the richest country, and it runs very few games per year.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#342

Post by [deleted] »

mindcrime wrote: post #325
tibbon wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best (like absolute best) football|basketball|baseball players in the world make approximately what per game?

Well, defensive end Olivier Vernon just signed a deal with the New York Giants which will pay him an average annual salary of around 17 million dollars. And there was a huge signing bonus as well.[1] NFL seasons are 16 regular season games, plus 4 pre-season games. And then there are the playoffs, which a given team might or might not make or advance in. All told, given that the signing bonus is amortized over all th…

[deleted]

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#343

Post by maxerickson »

ScottBurson wrote: post #334
SilasX wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT: What's with using monotype for quotes? That's breaks line wrapping and makes it hard to read on mobile or small screens. I don't get why people do it.

"People" don't do it; HN does it. Indented lines in a post are always monospaced, on the assumption, I suppose, that they're likely to be code examples. There's no way to turn this off AFAIK. And no, HN does not use Markdown.

The people indent the text (or fail to remove the leading white space when copying).

It isn't a huge time sink to wrap a paragraph in stars.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#344

Post by noobermin »

denim_chicken wrote: post #190
mikeyouse wrote: post #11

Relevant tweets from Demis; Lee Sedol is playing brilliantly! #AlphaGo thought it was doing well, but got confused on move 87. We are in trouble now... Mistake was on move 79, but #AlphaGo only came to that realisation on around move 87 When I say 'thought' and 'realisation' I just mean the output of #AlphaGo value net. It was around 70% at move 79 and then dived on move 87 Lee Sedol wins game 4!!! Congratulations! H…

It feels really weird to see someone being showered with congratulations for beating a computer program. What exactly is he being congratulated for? For probably triggering and then capitalizing on a bug in AlphaGo's AI? For showing that human resolve, perseverance and a "fighting spirit" can trump a flawed AI, at least until the AI gets fixed? For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerat…

>For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerate the refinement of AlphaGo's AI?

You're treating Lee Seedol as if he is a fixed dataset to be trained on. Why can't he also be a "NN" who can also "refine" his AI[0] and thus be hearder for Alpha Go to compete with?

You're putting too much faith in the machine and dropping the person, that might not be completely fair.

[0] Albeit not artificial in this case.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#345

Post by danneu »

simondedalus wrote: post #286
vowelless wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it really was about money, I don't think he would have spent so much of his life dedicated to Go ...

yeah, not to belabor it, but if you can do something like be a champion in go or chess, chances are you have the mental skillset to do something exponentially more lucrative.

Though being able to compel yourself to do great things seems like a completely different skill set from being able to do great things on someone else's dime or on a team.

For example, my brilliant programmer friend that can't hold a job. Or the artist that can only paint their own inspirations. Or the savant that doesn't get along with anybody.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#346

Post by theoh »

toolslive wrote: post #205
zsiciarz wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By NN you mean a neural network, of course? That makes even more sense...

NN = nomen nescio ("I don't know the name") You use it when you cannot name the source of a quote, or when you would like to protect the source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomen_nescio

Or Netochka Nezvanova? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netochka_Nezvanova

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#347

Post by hatsunearu »

omphalos wrote: post #290
hatsunearu wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"divine-inspired" move Just letting others know, this expression is a rather common way of saying a single move that changed the course of the game. There were "divine-inspired moves" that AlphaGo made in the first three games too.

Well it's not exactly common. It's used to describe the very best moves at the highest level of play.

I mean yeah, the decisive move _I_ make when I play my noob games is hardly divine, but in top level play, it happens every game.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#348

Post by eru »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #322
Bud wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you'd like a shot at explaining why AI is an "amoral field of study", and why it could "delegitimize everything that currently makes humans unique and extraordinary"? Dolphins are about as intelligent as us, too. Are dolphins amoral? Do they delegitimize Beethoven, Tesla, Gödel, Einstein, and da Vinci?

> Dolphins are about as intelligent as us, too How are you making this comparison?

I think Bud wanted to make a different point. Ie that AI doesn't delegitimize us---whatever that even means. Dolphins were just an example. He could have used Neanderthals, or Aliens.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#349

Post by eru »

Sharlin wrote: post #332
ceejayoz wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Frankly many pre-modern, pre-civilizarion humans were assholes. While it's somewhat news to me, I'm very glad to hear we've moved past that.

I hope that was irony.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Natur...

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#350

Post by eru »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #248
denim_chicken wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I suppose the fact that the opponent is a computer program should not be factored into the reaction to Sedol's win at all. I hope your reductionist explanation is not accurate because it would imply that we are already so highly conditioned to machines and to AI that this match is thought to be no different from a match between two humans.

You know that computers beating us at chess allowed us to get better at chess, right?

Fan Hui, the professional player they beat late last year, already improved his game by quite a bit from the occasional match with AlphaGo (deepmind hired him as a consultant to test). He's won every single game in the last European championship, and moved from around top 600th player in the world to around top 300.
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