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Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

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Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#201

Post by [deleted] »

grumpy-buffalo wrote: post #191
denim_chicken wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels really weird to see someone being showered with congratulations for beating a computer program. What exactly is he being congratulated for? For probably triggering and then capitalizing on a bug in AlphaGo's AI? For showing that human resolve, perseverance and a "fighting spirit" can trump a flawed AI, at least until the AI gets fixed? For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerat…

How about just for playing a good game of Go?

[deleted]

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#202

Post by denim_chicken »

grumpy-buffalo wrote: post #191
denim_chicken wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels really weird to see someone being showered with congratulations for beating a computer program. What exactly is he being congratulated for? For probably triggering and then capitalizing on a bug in AlphaGo's AI? For showing that human resolve, perseverance and a "fighting spirit" can trump a flawed AI, at least until the AI gets fixed? For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerat…

How about just for playing a good game of Go?

So I suppose the fact that the opponent is a computer program should not be factored into the reaction to Sedol's win at all.

I hope your reductionist explanation is not accurate because it would imply that we are already so highly conditioned to machines and to AI that this match is thought to be no different from a match between two humans.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#203

Post by nanofortnight »

scotty79 wrote: post #182
jballanc wrote: post #56

So AlphaGo is just a bot after all... Toward the end AlphaGo was making moves that even I (as a double-digit kyu player) could recognize as really bad. However, one of the commentators made the observation that each time it did, the moves forced a highly-predictable move by Lee Sedol in response. From the point of view of a Go player, they were non-sensical because they only removed points from the board and didn't a…

> Toward the end AlphaGo was making moves that even I (as a double-digit kyu player) could recognize as really bad. Maybe its training was focused on winning, not loosing narrowly. So as soon as it became obvious it can't win. It was just making silly moves because it was less researched scenario. Some people when they see they can't win they do silly moves just for fun.

They're not really silly moves, it's just that in order to get into a good state for AlphaGo, Lee Sedol would have to miss the obvious response to those moves.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#204

Post by ethanbond »

denim_chicken wrote: post #202
grumpy-buffalo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about just for playing a good game of Go?

So I suppose the fact that the opponent is a computer program should not be factored into the reaction to Sedol's win at all. I hope your reductionist explanation is not accurate because it would imply that we are already so highly conditioned to machines and to AI that this match is thought to be no different from a match between two humans.

The machine beat him 3 times and was more or less expected to win again. It didn't, which would imply that Sedol played an exceptionally good game. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#205

Post by toolslive »

zsiciarz wrote: post #192
toolslive wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do not anthropomorphise computers. They really hate that" (NN)

By NN you mean a neural network, of course? That makes even more sense...

NN = nomen nescio ("I don't know the name") You use it when you cannot name the source of a quote, or when you would like to protect the source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomen_nescio

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#206

Post by agumonkey »

imron wrote: post #197
jacquesm wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same happens to people, especially people that study theory. You can totally throw them off their game by making a non-standard move, even a relatively bad one as long as it breaks their existing pre-conceived notions about how the game should progress. Of course against a really strong player you're going to get beaten after that but a weak player strong on theory will have a harder time.

That's what Gary Kasparov attributes as one of the reasons he lost to deep blue.

Do you have a link toward this interview?

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#207

Post by sheepdestroyer »

denim_chicken wrote: post #190
mikeyouse wrote: post #11

Relevant tweets from Demis; Lee Sedol is playing brilliantly! #AlphaGo thought it was doing well, but got confused on move 87. We are in trouble now... Mistake was on move 79, but #AlphaGo only came to that realisation on around move 87 When I say 'thought' and 'realisation' I just mean the output of #AlphaGo value net. It was around 70% at move 79 and then dived on move 87 Lee Sedol wins game 4!!! Congratulations! H…

It feels really weird to see someone being showered with congratulations for beating a computer program. What exactly is he being congratulated for? For probably triggering and then capitalizing on a bug in AlphaGo's AI? For showing that human resolve, perseverance and a "fighting spirit" can trump a flawed AI, at least until the AI gets fixed? For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerat…

As noted by the live commentator, this has the opportunity to be the third revolution of the game of Go, opening again new ways of playing for the whole of humanity.

Imagine what AI, in different fields, means for humanity if it has so much to teach us, just by being able to "think" differently. I sure hope that one day they start writing philosophy and, doing so, potentially legitimize everything that currently makes humans unique and extraordinary.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#209

Post by amalcon »

diskcat wrote: post #78
argonaut wrote: post #51

If it's true that AlphaGo started making a series of bad moves after its mistake on move 79, this might tie into a classic problem with agents trained using reinforcement learning, which is that after making an initial mistake (whether by accident or due to noise, etc.), the agent gets taken into a state it's not familiar with, so it makes another mistake, digging an even deeper hole for itself - the mistakes then co…

There is a possibility that the AlphaGo team, knowing that it has already won a decisive victory, wanted to spare the champion a crushing 5-0 defeat and so commanded the AI to lose on purpose.

The AlphaGo team has stated that they no longer have the ability to make changes to the AI used for the match. The rules of the exhibition match prohibit that.

They maybe could have anyway, but it would be cheating: just the same as if they'd Mechanical Turk'ed it by e.g. having Ke Jie actually choose the moves to play.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#210

Post by zanalyzer »

toolslive wrote: post #205
zsiciarz wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By NN you mean a neural network, of course? That makes even more sense...

NN = nomen nescio ("I don't know the name") You use it when you cannot name the source of a quote, or when you would like to protect the source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomen_nescio

... wrote the bot trying to hide its identity
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