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Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

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Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#331
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly didn't know Appeal To Hypocrisy was a fallacy! Probably one I'm going to continue to make; hypocrisy is the one thing that drives me insane.

Yeah, it's a kind of ad hominem, because it says, "This person's arguments are not worth listening to because this person's behavior is not in line with what they are arguing for." But if arguments are rational things with inherent truth then it doesn't matter who says them. Her argument about overheard dongle jokes being sexist is weak enough as it is. The added hypocrisy just makes for sadly entertaining drama / go…

Anyway, whatever, her reputation is kinda ruined now

Right, like Joan of Arc's [1] was, after she got burned at the stake.

[1] http://imgur.com/JnZLsju

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#332
post #327
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 77 cents on the dollar thing is just a symptom of the same thing, blaming men for all and everything and portraying women as victims (to excert special compensation for women). If you research the paygap issue a little bit, you'll find that it really isn't an issue of discrimination at all (hint: among other things, women chose other professions than men). I admit that I have started to become very angry about th…

among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs? Isn't that a symptom. Most feminists don't "blame men", but "blame gender roles". It's just most gender roles significantly benefit a lot of men (and harm a small amount of other men).

For various reasons. Probably they tend to have in mind that they need more flexibility for when they have children. Also that they might have a husband who provides main income.

I don't know if people have to be pressured into having more time for their family, though. I think it is more having the option vs not having the option. I'd love to have the option as a man, but in general it is a privilege of women or rich people (not having to work).

Income is just one measurement, health and life satisfactions are others. Are men really so well off if you consider those?

Also, don't know about the US, but in my country women automatically get half of what their husbands earn. So they can go to Yoga class every day and still have a good income. Are they really so bad off? (edit: yoga class sounds snarky, what I mean is: women live longer than men, priorizing health over income might play a part).

Also, if you say "pressured into bad jobs", what is the punishment for not choosing a bad job?

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#333
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument being...?

That you're being an idiot. White male is the most privileged thing to be, not some down trodden, exploited minority. Posts like yours belong in /r/mensrights with the other crap. And from your other posts, I think you're much better than this.

I see that you believe that, but you provide no arguments to support that.

I only learned about /r/mensrights yesterday, checked it out but didn't like their attitudes at all. I think it is important to counter misguided feminism, though.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be technically true. So, then, if you're fired over hearsay, your next step is to mandate that the firing employer cooperate fully in your suit (defamation, tortious interference) against the originator of the hearsay. If not, then there will be a termination suit. If they don't want to cooperate in your suit against the libelous person, or be sued, then they pony up a settlement. Termination suits often c…

Exactly what legal risk for the employer are you referring to? "Termination suit"? You've assembled a series of statements that certainly do sound credible, but I can't figure out how to actually attach them back to employment law. Firing someone without cause or even for a demonstrably faulty cause is not a tort, Michael.

White: a layoff for a legitimate business reason (termination for convenience). Firing people who break the law or do things that are unethical (termination for cause). Firing people who fall short of a published and objective performance standard, if the policy is enforced uniformly. These are all considered to be unambiguously legal and ethical cases of termination.

Black: firing those who intend to unionize, firing with discriminatory intent, retaliation (including against protected insubordination such as whistleblowing), firing people because of disabilities that can be reasonably accommodated, firing people because they disclose compensation (anti-unionbusting provision), firing people for making legitimate use of HR or internal-mobility processes (a subcase of retaliation), firing people in retaliation for opposing harassment.

Gray: firing people who fail socially (when there's a record, in the company, of allowing internal transfer), firing people for ethically justifiable (but not explicitly protected) insubordination, firing people whose health issues interfere with the job, firing people you don't like.

In the US, most Gray cases are not considered tortious. You're correct. The burden of proof is technically on the employee to prove that it's a Black case.

If he knows what he's doing, however, the employee can establish enough Gray-Blackness that the company will desire to settle.

Typical firing example: Bob doesn't get along with his boss, Mark, who suspects Bob would rather be on another team. Mark gives him shitty performance reviews and he's flushed out. Looks like a non-tortious Gray case; the performance assessments are inherently subjective, but there's nothing about this that entitles Bob to legal protection. Even an inaccurate performance review is non-tortious managerial incompetence, right? Well, it's not that clear. For one thing, most companies make performance reviews part of the transfer packet. Then, a negative review can be construed as harassment: interference with work performance. Part of the employee's job is to cultivate internal relationships and that makes it harder.

Let's say that the performance review happened on February 1, with Bob being fired on March 15. Bob establishes that, in fact, he met with Alice (manager of another team) on January 24. Bob was, in fact, discussing internal mobility. He has a chain of emails to prove what was discussed.

That's not an uncommon thing for people to do when they don't get along with a boss, nor is it uncommon for bosses to pre-emptively fire flight risks. Now, Bob has a legitimate case for retaliation. He was making legitimate use of internal mobility processes and trying to build relationships within the company, which can reasonably be considered part of his job description, and he was punished for it with a negative review.

If, as is typical, his performance reviews are part of the transfer packet, his negative performance review constitutes harassment insofar as it interferes (tortiously) with his relationship with Alice.

Bob's claim is much stronger, if he has the paper. If he emailed himself (because, after being fired, he's lost access to his work account) copies of the relevant documentation, he has enough paper to initiate a discovery process. Even that, most companies would prefer to avoid.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#335

Let's simplify the rules to basic decency. Don't Be a Dick. Oh wait, I guess I can't say that now. Well, fuck me. Whoops, can't say that either. I hope mr-hank gets a huge severance out of PlayHaven. (At-will employment is not as simple as employers like to say it is.) At this point, he has position for something substantial, given that they discussed the termination in the public (disclosing an opinion that he is gu…

Single women age 20-30 actually make more than men do. The 77 cents thing is an oft repeated myth based on an old study with shoddy methodology.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was honestly surprised by those decisions. This feels like the sort of risk-averse, old-fashioned line that I'd expect an Intel or IBM to take. Someone said something in public and it was controversial; fire everyone involved on all sides!

The legal advice that companies like IBM and intel would have gotten in these situations would almost certainly precluded firing people over it, conservatism runs both ways.

Risk-averse large corporations would have either:

* given the employees a formal reprimand, which would stink up the personnel file but probably be harmless, or

* fired the employee, but with a decent severance package (1.5 * expected job search time for that position) including two-way non-disparagement.

Discussing the termination in a press release would not have happened, as it shouldn't. You should only discuss a termination in high-profile cases of severe ethical wrongdoing by important officers. Otherwise, you shut the fuck up about it.

There was no ethical wrongdoing by mr-hank and he was not an important officer. I don't think he deserved to be fired. In fact, I think it was fucking ridiculous. Adria Richards was in the wrong (I'd call it mild-to-moderate wrongdoing, myself) and in a more high-profile role, so I think the termination was justified, but the public disclosure I am less comfortable with.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#337
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She posted a tweet. A tweet ratting out people for having a personal conversation she eavesdropped on. With their picture and everything. And for what? For something that was absolutely not her fucking business. Also telling is what she didn't do: 1) She didn't complain to them. 2) She didn't ask them to stop (if they were talking loud). 3) She didn't ask the conference organizers to take some action. 4) She didn't…

She at least said she was sorry to hear he got let go, and hoped they brought him back. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

After reading her blog post and several tweets, her words seems carefully crafted to achieve a personal agenda, and I would take anything she says with a whole salt shaker worth of grains of salt.

For all I know this could very well be PR and damage control from her. I have a hard time believing she had no idea this was a possible and probable consequence of her posting of this picture. This is not an uncommon outcome.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#338
post #327
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 77 cents on the dollar thing is just a symptom of the same thing, blaming men for all and everything and portraying women as victims (to excert special compensation for women). If you research the paygap issue a little bit, you'll find that it really isn't an issue of discrimination at all (hint: among other things, women chose other professions than men). I admit that I have started to become very angry about th…

among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs? Isn't that a symptom. Most feminists don't "blame men", but "blame gender roles". It's just most gender roles significantly benefit a lot of men (and harm a small amount of other men).

I think it would be because women tend to value the economic worth of potential mates more than men value the economic worth of potential mates.

So any man choosing higher discomfort for more pay isn't just getting more money he's also improving his chance of finding a mate.

Meanwhile women have a smaller incentive to take discomfort since they will not get the compensation of enhanced attractiveness.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#339
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument being...?

That you're being an idiot. White male is the most privileged thing to be, not some down trodden, exploited minority. Posts like yours belong in /r/mensrights with the other crap. And from your other posts, I think you're much better than this.

you're being an idiot

Says the guy who resorts to name-calling.

White male is the most privileged thing to be

No, being an upper middle-class white male is the most privileged thing to be.

not some down trodden, exploited minority

Think positive, maybe one day a minority might become president.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's an argument that one side does win by default, and that "racism" should be used to acknowledge that power imbalance. "Minorities saying racist things", by this theory, doesn't hold a candle to, say, the fact that minorities are more frequently imprisoned, more often pulled over/searched illegally/beaten by law enforcement agents, more often feared, more often treated with bias in the workplace or dating wo…

In both cases, it seems to work more as extenuating circumstances than as a blanket permission to say inappropriate things to another human being based on his looks. Or in other words, it's not OK to discriminate against somebody else solely for the reason that you are part of a group discriminated against. It just makes you part of the problem. I think having a definition of racism to be "discriminate against somebo…

I agree with you. It's an ambiguity that leads to lots of people ignoring the real problem, because they're convinced the people talking about it are really just looking for an excuse to be bigots – as here.
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