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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#331

Post by detaro »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #322
rwmj wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination of inability to read anything longer than a tweet and not wanting to put anything on record.

I'd say otherwise - it's a reach out to have a relationship. It's hard to have human relationships only by writing. Of course the best way to build it is to meet in person, but if impossible - it's always good to have a video call. If someone is frustrated, the following chats won't do much really. They have already built a wall, and we need to meet around it, not throw our letters over it.

Then at least try to sound like a genuine human that cares and not a PR response when reaching out. Offer a "you can call me if you want" vs making the call the expectation (it's phrased as a question but there is no other path offered).

Re: End of Japanese community

#332

Post by henearkr »

ares623 wrote: post #3

This is rich > We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. The post literally starts with a list of grievances. Maybe ask the AI for an executive summary and the key points.

In the replying posts, there is mention of a discovered bug that could have resulted in most of the reported problems.

It is normal to want to discuss in order to check if that was the bug, in which case fixing the bug would have solved the issues.

Re: End of Japanese community

#333

Post by atoav »

thomascountz wrote: post #286
hazn wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

It's always the, "I'm sorry for how you feel," that strikes me as belittling and disingenuous.

It is gaslighting even. It is extremely manipulative to be sorry about a thing someone else did, while in fact the the fuckup originated from you. Own it or offer to investigate/fix it.

A decent answer would have been worded among the lines of:

"I am personally deeply sorry to see you go [acknowledge you take their decision serious]. I don't know the details, but if what you describe is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), this is clearly unacceptable and should never have happened [acknowledge the issue is serious and confirm it wasn't intentional]. You feeling betrayed as a result of this is only natural and understandable, and it is Mozilla that should feel ashamed for it coming to this [validate feeling, admit guilt]. I will investigate why this happened and want to find ways to ensure something like this never happens again [show that you're willing to do something substential solbing the root of the problem]. Nobody should have their hard work just automatically replaced by AI, not you, nor anybody else [afirm you're on the same page as them by appeal to general principle]. I know you likely don't want to have anything to do with this now, but I would be deeply grateful if you had a moment to talk about this with me, personally, not as a member of Mozilla but as a member of the community [ask them about help, acknowledging you can't expect any, show that you care about this beyond any purely official duties]."

Of course that means some work, but this is how I would answer such a thing.

Re: End of Japanese community

#334

Post by mikelovenotwar »

themafia wrote: post #25
getnormality wrote: post #23

I'm sorry for how you feel about us kicking you in the balls. Would you like to hop on a quick call to chat about this further? Just a quick lil call. Quick lil ol' callerino. Hoppity hip hop.

"We want to better understand the issues your balls are going through right now."

"..and how we can help you engage further with our automated ball kicking machine we used on you without consent.."

Re: End of Japanese community

#335

Post by rezaprima »

nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

Further down someone mention a bug that surfaced prior, and I take this as an attempt to understand the bug further.

Re: End of Japanese community

#336

Post by jval43 »

totetsu wrote: post #108
gyomu wrote: post #18

As a multilingual/multicultural human it’s been pretty weird witnessing what AI translation has been doing to regional languages & cultures on the internet in the last few years. Sure we had machine translation before, but it was still a little off. Now the latest language models get us 99.9% there, so they are judged good enough to deploy at scale. What results is a weird twilight zone where everything is in your la…

FWIW I recently was watching something that i did not realise had been auto translated from Chinese to English. It was kind of a technical topic, but still it seemed perfectly natural. It struck me that .. as much as conflict hawks and clash of culture theorists might want to do their best to construct an enemy, if we get past the disorientation of language barriers, then mostly people are the same. If AI translation…

Culture is just as much a part of language as the language itself.

There is an air of arrogance in proclaiming that it is merely language barriers that are an issue. But of course it's a convenient argument for big tech forcing MTL on all of us.

But it ultimately marginalizes smaller communities and kills languages. Cultural genocide if you will.

The dangerous thing is that the current state of MTL is serviceable and even usable, but a bilingual speaker will immediately know something is off.

I have noticed this both for French and German, two languages with lots of training material. I imagine it's much much worse for smaller languages and/or communities.

As more and more content on the web is automatically translated, we will all start to talk like translated-from-English LLMs, and that is a future I'm not looking forward to.

Re: End of Japanese community

#337

Post by aleph_minus_one »

xxs wrote: post #318
1over137 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking a second language live is much harder than taking your time and writing something.

That's not necessary true. Regardless the response is totally trash and the timezone (US west coast) likely doesn't help, either Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking.

> Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking.

Translators (of texts) are not interpreters.

Re: End of Japanese community

#338

Post by cma »

detaro wrote: post #310
janmalec wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you form this response to make it less condensending and patronizing? I won't judge if it is patronizing or not because I'm not very good at this kind of thing but would like to understand the issue.

a) don't apologize for the other persons feelings, but for your actions that lead to it b) don't look like you are trying to take the conversation out of the community space it's happening in and/or hiding details by going to a private call (you can offer a call, but it shouldn't be the expectation) c) Acknowledge the concrete complaints made. Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means when they comp…

> Are you truly "struggling to understand" what someone means

You've turned this around into a very different quote, and shouldn't use quote marks for that. They wrote:

> We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

I don't like their response and agree with a lot of people in the thread it looks like they are trying to do the call to take it private. But we don't have to make up stuff.

Re: End of Japanese community

#339

Post by detaro »

barbazoo wrote: post #2

> They are all happened on the product server, not on staging server. I understand that this is mass destruction of our work and explicit violation to the Mozilla mission, allowed officially. Could this have been a mistake rather than a malicious act?

Then say so if someone complains about it? "Shoot, we accidentally ran it in the wrong mode, sorry about that, I'll look into someone fixing it ASAP" is a lot better than "We're sorry for how you feel".

Re: End of Japanese community

#340

Post by xxs »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #337
xxs wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not necessary true. Regardless the response is totally trash and the timezone (US west coast) likely doesn't help, either Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking.

> Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking. Translators (of texts) are not interpreters.

To learn nuances, spoken language is quite important.

I am not a translator and English is not my 1st language (technically) - I'd have no issues 'hopping' on a call.

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