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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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331–340 of 809 posts

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#331

I had a recent experience with replacing the main blower motor on my American Standard gas furnace: the variable speed motor has firmware, so can you guess what they did? The motor has to be programmed by the distributor or it will not work in your furnace. You have to provide the furnace's serial number for the programming. Worse, the local distributor would not sell it to me! They will only sell it to an installer.…

Gradient is a great product, uses 120V, great for small spaces, like apartments in NYC. https://www.protocol.com/climate/gradient-nycha-heat-pumps-q.... Electric Air is really targeted at replacing natural gas furnaces in single family homes.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#332
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pumps are trying to compete against very inefficient, yet very powerful, forms of heating. A 100 year old house might have 12 fireplaces, each of which, when loaded full of wood or coal, can output 10 kilowatts. Thats 120 kilowatts of heat - 500k btu/h. If upgraded to a gas boiler, that same house might be fitted with a 30 kilowatt system - 100k btu/h The same house outfitted with a heat pump might expect to get…

12 fire places? Is that a mansion or something? Or just poorly designed and not insulated in any way?

A typical WW1 'workers house' would have ~5 bedrooms, 10 foot ceilings, ~6 other rooms, and one or two fireplaces in each room.

With no heat circulation system, you would want a fireplace in each room for comfort. Typically windows wouldn't really seal, so you needed the radiant heat.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#333

Would've loved to see a different approach to the typical refrigerant-split units. I'm EPA certified, and do my own heat pump work, but something that could really blow up the heat pump space would be a closed-loop refrigerant system that uses water lines to the indoor coil/air handler. This would make the system a true DIY self-install, since you'd never be messing with refrigerant loops. The indoor coil/AH could be…

Absolutely this. 3-4x? Sibling of mine just had a minisplit installed where the unit was probably $4-$5k and the total was north of $24k. A sealed water loop where any plumber and most DIYers could manage would be miles ahead in both reliability and accessibility.

Good point; I forgot to mention the reliability/environmental aspect as well. Most DIY, and even pro installs, of mini splits fail due to leaking flare connections, which must be made in the field. Modern refrigerants operate at very high (400+ PSI) pressures, and getting a perfect seal is critical. Having the entire refidgerant loop sealed and tested at the factory significantly decrease the common issues and prevents dumping climate-harmful gasses into the atmosphere.

Even with more reliable brazed connections, modern heat pumps are very sensitive to contamination of the refrigerant lines. Brazing must be done with utmost care not to overheat the copper, and nitrogen gas needs to flow through the pipe at specific volumes to prevent carbon deposits that can decrease the longevity of the system. Any damage caused by improper brazing is largely invisible (inside the pipe) and the process is time consuming and precise; in exact opposition to the incentives an HVAC installer to get it done quickly.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#334

Please consider on-boarding to Home Assistant. Avoid proprietary protocols to communicate between sub-systems as much as possible. The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Do not require internet connectivity, a hub, or some intermediary solution if a third party system (such as Home Assistant) wants to communicate to the system. My biggest fe…

> The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet.

Rural users often have limited or no access to Internet service, yet need technology like this to heat and cool their homes.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#335
Hi Chris, good luck with your startup. I'm in the market for a natural gas --> heat pump remodel and expect to be signing a contractor's proposal today. I'm looking to put in a 4 ton Mitsubishi hyper heat system with an air handler to replace the gas furnace and four minisplits for the cold spots in the house. I live in the PNW.

The Mitsubishi remotes and thermostats do indeed look like they're going to be terrible, and their cloud-based offering is a joke whose website has been offline every time I looked at it. I still won't be considering your startup's offering. In the interest of providing constructive feedback, here's why:

1. Timing. My existing air conditioner is defunct and I need a replacement before summer.

2. No track record. This is by far the biggest issue after timing. I'm not comfortable making such a big purchase, which I expect to maintain for decades, with a company without at least a five year history and the opportunity to work out the bugs.

3. Multi-port system. My house has serious problems with hot and cold spots that can't be resolved with the existing ducting. Minisplits are necessary. I like that the Mitsubishi system runs the central air and minisplits off a single compressor.

4. Contractor. This is a big install and I'm not going to do it myself. I contacted several contractors. Each has their preferred vendor, and the one I liked the best prefers Mitsubishi.

I hope this is helpful. Again, best of luck to you. Competition in this space can only be a good thing.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#336

Hi Chris, good luck with your startup. I'm in the market for a natural gas --> heat pump remodel and expect to be signing a contractor's proposal today. I'm looking to put in a 4 ton Mitsubishi hyper heat system with an air handler to replace the gas furnace and four minisplits for the cold spots in the house. I live in the PNW. The Mitsubishi remotes and thermostats do indeed look like they're going to be terrible,…

The Mitsubishi thermostats aren’t that bad. And you can buy a locally-controllable system from Cool Automation for an egregious price to control them, too.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#337
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

When you say it's rated at 47F do you mean its efficiency is measured at 47F? If so, does that matter much? The unit linked in the post you're replying to states that it can operate as low as -13F.

Talking about capacity for heat pumps is tricky, their available heating power changes continuously as a function of outdoor temperature. The convention is to refer to the available capacity at 47F for 'normal' heat pump and the capacity at 5F for a cold climate heat pump.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#339
post #242

It's strange seeing this post describe heat pumps as if they're a new thing, and everyone commenting as if they are. I live in New Zealand and heat pumps have been standard in new builds for just about 20 years now. They're great. If you want to add one to your home you can call up various companies to do it for reasonable prices (not sure how this stacks up against US prices, but I recently had a small 2.5kW cool/3.…

In the US, heat pumps are not unheard of, but they are fairly rare. (Not counting air conditioning, which no one here thinks of as a "heat pump" even tough it essentially is.)

Trying to get a HVAC company to install a heat pump can be very difficult and/or expensive in may parts of the US.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#340
post #45
post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

Crazy idea:

Pressure plates in the streets which are pressed when cars drive over them - pushing fluids through your coils, but connected to multiple units on either side.

Harvest the kinetic energy of cars passing through the streets to apply pressure to pumps that feed fluids through the system, capturing that energy in a dynamo way?

Put these plates in every high trafficked area. Piping the pumping action from parking garages to freeway exits and shipping ports which roll off weight from water to street and pump a f-ton of fluid based on vehicle traffick and weight.

Make smaller installations... make an adapter interface to railway. heavy as cars on trains constantly hitting the pump valves. (yes we still need to deal with the bureau assholes in that industry... Im talking engineering)

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