Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#331

Post by i2infinity » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:59 AM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #223

KennyBlanken wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to cut through rain, fog, and snow is precisely why so many companies use radar based systems - that's arguably when they are the most important and useful. Leaning further into their vision systems when their vision systems cause their cars to slam into emergency vehicles that aren't even in travel lanes, and to rear-end tractor trailers, isn't encouraging. Musk is placing the rest of us at risk and I'm…

Have you seen a recent video of their most recent vision stack in use by a customer?

Nope! Why do you ask?

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#332

Post by nopenopenopeno » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 5:40 AM UTC

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

like being first in line to buy a touch bar macbook pro

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#333

Post by staticman2 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #103

Qworg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see the convincing data RE: radar - they're using the same radars as every other car that has emergency braking from the car in front of the car that's in front of you. I've not heard of many "phantom braking" sessions from these other vehicles - I may have missed something.

I got a ton of phantom braking just two weeks ago when I rented a 2020 Toyota Corolla with this feature. I've also gotten it in a 2019 Tesla Model 3, of course.

I've only had phantom breaking with my 2019 Camry once or twice.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#334

Post by jjcon » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #309

jjcon wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again though - these sensors performed a highly specialized task - there is no inherent reason Tesla wouldn’t be able to outperform them with a specialized visual system

The problem of using computer vision to compute distances to moving 3D objects in any weather conditions is too general - it is precisely the generalized vision problem I was talking about. Ultrasonic or radar or lidar sensors are much simpler solutions to the problem of computing distances, as they do not rely on computer vision. Note that the reason this problem is very hard for computer vision is that there is sim…

> there is simply not enough information in a 2D picture to get 3D distance information, even with parallax. Our eyes also can't solve this problem.

That is certainly false - perhaps with extremely limited amounts of parallax yes but that isn't how this setup is working. Humans certainly use heuristics not only because our brains are capable of it but also because a face only has a few mm of separation, with enough parallax you can get phenomenal 3d information out of a visual system. Replacing a single sensor here is certainly not too general for good performance but also my point again was never to say this was an optimal or perfect solution only to say evolutionary arguments are stupid here because we build machines and algorithms every day that operate better than evolution does.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#335

Post by vel0city » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:11 PM UTC

2III7 wrote: post #308

yonaguska wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flashlight's have come a long way. I much prefer that to using my phone, especially on Android where opening the camera can be finicky and turning on the lamp requires a ridiculous amount of steps compared to the iPhones. Especially handy if out in the cold with gloves. Armytek prime c2 pro is pretty great.

Why do you have to open the camera in order to use the flashlight on an android phone? The button to turn the flashlight on is in the quick settings panel which can also be opened from the lock screen.

On my older Motorola it was even a gesture of shaking it twice like a hatchet would turn the flashlight on and off.

How I miss the Moto X 2014, probably my favorite phone of all time.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#336

Post by stetrain » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:11 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #255

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> Once the hood has occluded the view from the windshield cameras, these obstructions will cease to exist. I have observed that this is how vision is currently implemented, but does it have to be this way? I can pull up to a concrete wheel stop in my Toyota without vision and without the sonar enabled even though my eyesight is occluded by the hood because I know where it was and how far I have moved. Concrete wheel…

The inverse is an issue though.

The car parks and turns off, with no obstacles in front.

While parked a child/dog/bucket of concrete materializes directly in the front blindspot.

Next time the car drives, it has no knowledge of this obstruction.

This isn't a huge problem for a car driven by a human, since you can and should check around the car before driving, or will have other context clues that there is a child or dog or whatever running around your car, but this seems incompatible with the stated goal of making all current cars into Robotaxis.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#337

Post by stetrain » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:13 PM UTC

djmips wrote: post #72

JoshGlazebrook wrote: post #3

“In the near future, once these features achieve performance parity to today’s vehicles” Right... like how vision vehicles have parity with autopilot speeds and following distance? Oh wait they don't. Vision-only vehicles are still limited to a max of 85mph and 2 car minimum following distance for autosteer while radar is 90mph and 1 car following distance. Texas has 85mph highways. The two car following distance con…

What's the point of using car lengths as a metric of follow distance.

It isn't really car-length, is it speed-adjusted to scale larger at high speeds and closer at low speeds.

But the display on the screen shows a car with a line and the numbers 1-7 as you adjust it so people shorthand refer to it as "car-lengths"

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#338

Post by misiti3780 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:26 PM UTC

valine wrote: post #122

atonse wrote: post #43

I have had a model 3 for four years and the autopilot has steadily gotten worse. In summer 2019 we went on a road trip that was 10 hours of total driving (each way), where I actually drove for maybe 30 mins total. It was flawless and downright magical. Since then we often have the car slam brakes out of the blue (once waking up my sleeping family and causing both kids to cry), and a few other times. I have lost trust…

Phantom braking is much improved on the FSD branch even during highway driving. Went from 2022.16 to beta 10.69 and it was night and day difference. Haven’t had a single phantom brake in weeks.

i have not had any phantom breaking in months also.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#339

Post by misiti3780 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

socialismisok wrote: post #172

This reads strongly like, "we're losing, badly, and we hope this will buy enough runway for us to figure things out before we've lost completely." I genuinely don't know why anyone would buy into Tesla now.

lol. tesla is selling 350K+ cars per quarter, with back orders on every model. you're delusional.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#340

Post by amluto » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 12:00 AM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #147

BoorishBears wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My entire point is that even outside of FSD this is a scenario a base model Corolla has the technology to handle: AEB You don't actively engage AEB, at the kinds of low speeds involved AEB would have engaged and at least helped stop the car. This was traffic that was going maybe 20 mph, and the car still hit me solidly enough for my car to lurch forward and almost hit the one in front of me - But as an aside, this is…

Teslas AEB works but if the driver has their foot on the accelerator it won’t. And with one pedal driving, there’s the issue. But it could also be a case of the person turned it off because of course Tesla let’s you control that. IMO if the car thinks you’re going to crash it shouldn’t let you override AEB period. Why this isn’t a law…

> Teslas AEB works but if the driver has their foot on the accelerator it won’t.

Seriously?!? Tesla drivers learn to basically always have their foot on the accelerator, because the car slows quite aggressively with the accelerator all the way released.

IMO the one-foot model makes it quite hard to drive without lurching a bit and without unnecessary accidental light breaking while cruising. I often imagine that careful haptic feedback on the pedals could enable a much better one-pedal or blended braking experience.