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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

331–340 of 356 posts

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is less about fraud and more about the existence of draconian laws (imprisoning debtors) in a place that professes modernity and manipulation of or utter disregard for said laws by those in high places. All parties including the main lender knew about the irregularities you cited, yet they agreed to restructure the loan. The man's fraud charge normally carries a 3 year sentence but he's still in prison 13 years la…

Imprisoning debtors has been a request from British banks to operate in the country. Yes, banks wield vast powers but when you are playing with billions you gotta pay to play .I lost my life savings in that crisis, for no reason at all on my part. It was the greed of banks and many fraudsters . I was rightfully imprisoned in Dubai, which is very rare to admit, I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend i…

> I was rightfully imprisoned in Dubai, which is very rare to admit, I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend in Ramadan, in jail for 24 hours

Many western people think they can just go anywhere and expect laws to work the same as they do at home. I would not go to a country with such insanity but if you do, observe the local laws and customs. They don’t put up 100s of scary posters at the Thai border for nothing for instance, tourists seem to blatantly break these religious rules and they will face consequences. Same with a lot of Middle East, African and Asian countries. Just do your research or simply do not go; it is not like Europe or the US, although of course for most people it feels like it because they don’t get caught (by pure luck; I doubt most holidaying for a week in Dubai know about this) when they kiss on Ramadan.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#332
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, just reading more on the topic now, it’s a punishable offense, not illegal. My mistake thanks for pointing this out

Interest is punishable, debt, not so much.

Even this is not entirely true.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#333
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they really buried the admission of fraud pretty deep in the article. They forged invoices and spent 342m on unauthorized riskier projects. Sounds like the sentence may be excessive, but not the conviction.

Because it isn't really relevant if he was guilty or not. Being arrested for a crime, forced to sign a document in a language you don't understand, no access to legal or diplomatic representation, repeatedly denied any hearing or appeal, and charged with a crime retroactively is what is being questioned. This article is not about someone's innocence, it's about the system and processes, some of which are considered i…

But the article is written in a deceptive way and appears to rely totally on the testimony of a man they admit was a large scale fraudster, implying that many of the things it claims may be false.

The hook in the article is the following claim: "foreigners doing business in Dubai are often unaware that local politicians and businessmen – elite figures are often both – may use the courts to pursue vendettas, settle scores or raid assets they covet. Even the smallest debt can lead to years in jail. Cornelius is just one of thousands of expats who are either imprisoned in Dubai after falling foul of the emirate’s draconian legal system."

So they are presenting Cornelius as an innocent, almost random person with a small debt, who is merely an example of what could happen to anyone doing business in Dubai. That's a lot of people and thus a topic of general interest.

Later on we learn that in fact Cornelius was even by his own admission a massive fraudster, operating in the hundreds of millions range. Yes, Dubai's court system sounds like a joke. Not a good look for them. But this guy is hardly a source of generalizable lessons that might interest other people especially as it becomes clear later in the article that he appears to have been specifically targeted by the Sheikh himself.

I'm actually quite appalled at how far the Economist has fallen. I haven't read it for years and didn't expect such a manipulatively written article from them.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#334
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the law. The law is that such theft is a misdemeanor which caries up to 6 months of jail time and a fine of up to $1000. They are not prosecuted in San Francisco because the DA chooses not to do so.

Why does the DA choose not to?

Because promising not to is how he got elected. In other words, a left wing political coalition that wasn't able to get the law changed via the normal routes were able to eliminate the rule of law instead.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#335
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say. I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution…

> It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics. > I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say. That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would lov…

> Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.

Does this really not match your experience of how things have been going lately? Freedom of speech and association but that doesn't prevent you from being fired for what you say or who you associate with. Free to protest unless there's a risk your protest might have an effect, then a state of emergency will be declared and the police will explain how they can legally kidnap your dog.

> That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in.

Japan, FWIW. I could be deported if I took part in political activities, there are significant restrictions on my speech (strict libel laws). But I have a supportive local community and strong employment protection, both things that count for a lot.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#336
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say. I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution…

Doesn't that just mean that there's more space for one to get arbitrary trouble the moment somebody decides that they don't like you or what you do?

In theory yes, but it's often a distraction in practice, like putting a triple-secure lock on your iron-plated door and leaving the window open. Many of these freedoms are important, but threatened much more by corporations or cultures than by governments.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been as a tourist and had expat family live there for ~15 years. It's safe until it's not. Any unexpected confrontation or interaction with the officials can go sideways quick because they will fabricate whatever story fits their preferred reality and subject you to the consequences of it. The driving example is the most easily discussed because it's common to witness the locals simply not following laws or basi…

How did your employer find and hire such a fixer? Were they a local employer?

Big Oil. They had lots of folks making expat life safe/comfortable and obviously tons of political influence.

He was probably technically a contractor so the company had separation from the bribes that took place. Probably not practical to find someone like that for a short vacation but if you’re an expat or spending an extended time there you could find someone like this. It’s not cheap. Sounds horrible, but At the very least, hire a guide to be with you and take the fall for anything that happens. Mostly this means Hire a driver and don’t operate a vehicle. Other things are pretty low risk if you’re just engaging in typical tourist stuff in typical tourist areas.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#339
Dubai is not perfect. But it's not _that_ bad. And I think they're trying to be more welcoming to foreigners and everybody else and ironing out other issues. But it'll take time, and won't happen overnight.

Is the situation in Dubai getting worse over time, or is it getting better?

(btw, I'm just talking about Dubai and UAE in general. For other countries in the region all bets are off; I have no idea what goes on in places like Yemen, for instance).

I guess your perspective on UAE would depend on where you come from.

If you're from developed countries like, for example, Norway, Finland, and perhaps even USA, Dubai is going to look worse off.

But plenty of people in Dubai are from countries even worse. So for them, Dubai is definitely an upgrade.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#340
post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

> They'll have to do something against the sexism

They're working on it. The situation has improved. There's a long way to go, but there's progress. Give it a 100 more years.

> dressed like locals

Please don't do that. It just looks weird when foreigners do it. Just wear what you would normally wear in your western country. (Although, a bikini is probably not a good idea).

> were looked upon with resentment everywhere we went.

I've lived in USA for a while. Although people were generally very friendly, I have definitely been looked at with resentment from America for no good reason.

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