Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown • Hacker News Board

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#331

Post by _moof » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #326

_moof wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, aerospace software engineer and flight instructor here. I think you get shot down because the problems just aren't comparable. While I agree that there may be some philosophical transfer from aircraft automation, the environments are so radically different that it's difficult to imagine any substantial technological transfer. Aircraft operate in an extremely controlled environment that is almost embarrassingly si…

I'm actually in complete agreement! What sticks out to me is your assessment that the flight environment is "embarrassingly simple from an automation perspective", which I agree as well (as compared to cars). And yet despite that simplicity and decades at it, we still run it with an incredible robust infrastructure to have a human oversee the tech. We have super robust procedures for checking and cross-checking the a…

I agree completely. It's a very difficult problem from a technical perspective, and from a systems perspective, we've got untrained operators who can't even stay off their phones in a non-self-driving car. (Not high-horsing it here; I'm as guilty of this as anyone.) Frankly I'll be amazed if anyone can get this to actually work without significant changes to the total system. Right now self-driving car folks are working in isolation - they're only working on the car - and I just don't think it's going to happen until everyone else in the system gets involved.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#332

Post by kaba0 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

angelzen wrote: post #218

Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched quite a few FSD videos and in almost every single one the car barely knows what it wants. The route jumps all over the place. I'm pretty sure it's just the nature of their system using cameras and the noisy data that can generate. The sat nav didn't update the route to go that way. The FSD system decided to. It probably completely lost track of the road ahead because of the unmarked section of the road a…

That could be selection bias. The [edit, was '99%'] vast majority of the time the car does the boring thing are not click-worthy. Have you driven a Tesla for a reasonably long period of time? There is a bigger lesson in there: click-driven video selection creates a very warped view of the world. The video stream is dominated by 'interesting' events, ignoring the boringly mundane that overwhelmingly dominates real lif…

1% is ridiculously high for something endangering the ones inside and outside.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#333

Post by pidge » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #166

jorpal wrote: post #83

Basic game theory dictates that if automated driving is seen as too safe, pedestrians will feel comfortable walking anywhere, anytime. Dense downtowns will become completely gridlocked and unusable for cars. Which maybe isn’t a bad thing. But if you want cars in cities you need them to be perceived as dangerous. Yeah I was convinced by Gladwell.

You solve this face recognition and ticketing of offenders. The cars have cameras everywhere anyway

Yeah Los Angeles already fines pedestrians pretty aggressively for jaywalking, even on urban pedestrian-heavy streets.

This maintains a different norm for the city about jaywalking than say Boston, so in principle the issue seems quite solvable.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#334

Post by soheil » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

maybeOneDay wrote: post #19

soheil wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha how is that illegal? The driver took over way before the car entered the crosswalk section.

"Entered the crosswalk section" is a rather euphemistic way of describing "drove directly through where the people were going to be"

Was going to drive != drove

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#335

Post by Geee » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #320

Geee wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is safe, because there's a driver who is ready to correct any mistakes. There isn't a single case where FSD Beta actually hits something or causes an accident. So, based on actual data, the current testing procedure seems to be safe. It isn't possible to learn edge cases without a lot of training data, so I don't see any other way.

This person is not a Tesla employee being trained and paid to test this extremely dangerous piece of software that has already killed at least 11 people. This is obviously unacceptable, and no other self-driving company has taken the insane step of letting beta testers try out their barely functional software.

FSD Beta has never killed anyone. Maybe you're confusing it with Autopilot, which is different software, but also has saved much more people than killed.

I'm not saying that safety couldn't be improved, for example by disengaging more easily in situations where it isn't confident. One heuristic would be when it changes route suddenly, like in this scenario.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#336

Post by theslurmmustflo » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #292

theslurmmustflo wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

like this? https://twitter.com/tripgore/status/1311661887533314048?s=21

That was when Tesla AP relied on radar which has a hard time detecting styrofoam.

this is a model 3, it doesn't have radar.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#337

Post by angelzen » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #324

angelzen wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% is a an very rough colloquial estimate meaning 'the vast majority of the time' to drive the point. Could well be 99.999999%. What really matters is how it compares with human performance, I don't have data to do that comparison. The only ones that can make the comparison are Tesla, modulo believing data from a megacorp in the wake of the VW scandal.

FYI, that 99.999999 number you quoted is still bad. It means around 30 minutes of the machine actively trying to kill you or others while driving on public roads. I assumed a person driving 2 hours a day for a year. FSD should not be allowed on the road, or if it is it should be labeled as what it really is: lane assist.

I'm not 'quoting' any numbers. I don't own a Tesla. I don't trust lane assist technology, the probability of catastrophic failure is much larger even compared with dynamic cruise control. I'll steer the wheel thank you very much. I'm not a techno-optimist, rather the contrary. I would like independent verification of the safety claims Tesla makes, or any other claims made by vendors of safety-critical devices.

What I am saying is that selection bias has exploded in the age of viral videos, and this phenomenon doesn't receive anywhere near the attention it deserves. We can't make sound judgements based on online videos, we need quality data.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#338

Post by mcguire » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #30

"almost hitting pedestrian" It wasn't even close. Look at where the ped is at 12 seconds, compared to the car. It's because he stopped the turn, and straightened the vehicle that the pedestrian stopped and looked up with concern (at 13 seconds). Even if the pedestrian broke out into a full run, they wouldn't have been in any real danger. This sort of close interplay between pedestrians and cars is very common in citi…

How close are Tesla's programmed to come to pedestrians? An obviously safe distance, or an "I didn't actually touch you" distance?

I've been mostly looking at the OSD---it doesn't look like the car noticed the pedestrians until after the driver had taken manual control.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#339

Post by beprogrammed » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

seniorgarcia wrote: post #300

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

Just to point to another possibility, since the drivers right hand is not in shot, even though his left hand is carefully poised over the steering wheel for the whole shot, it also looks like he pulled hard on the steering wheel with his right hand. That might explain the car trying to re-route on the display, although I'm not even sure it does. To me it looks like the black line disappears into compression artefacts…

You can see his right hand reflected in the display, it was just idle during the event.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#340

Post by WA » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

Reminder that Tesla will kill critical videos of FSD, but still to this day has not taken down the fabricated "full self driving demo" from their own website since 2016: https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...

Tesla (and fanboys) say that they are clear about the limited capabilities of Autopilot and FSD when in reality, they indirectly support all fan-videos by letting them live on YouTube while DMCAing critical videos.

They want you to believe that FSD is more capable than it truly is.