American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#331

Post by lvl100 » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

Dracophoenix wrote: post #313

lvl100 wrote: post #211

This notion that “American” math and sciences lag behind the world is one of the greatest lies ever told in my lifetime. And for the record, there is no “Russian” math or “Chinese” math. Mathematics is mathematics. Where the US approach differs is that they are not requiring high level of math on general public. However, if you are gifted and/or motivated, you have access to unparalleled resources.

If you count Khan Academy and MIT's OCW, sure the Anglo-sphere has unparalleled resources. But a minor point of the article is how the way Americans are taught in conventional public school is just to do the basic work. Math is treated as a hurdle to clear rather than the lifelong mental sport. But here's a point I would have liked examined further in the article: where does one find material or instruction that woul…

Ok. And what did those programs actually achieve for Russia and China? Is that why they send their best to the US/UK to study? Interesting.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#332

Post by foobarian » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

thechao wrote: post #270

ptero wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience is that it wasn't just hours. Those who liked math spent a lot of time on it after classes. Those who didn't, avoided extras and still did OK (they would not go to top universities, but the base would be OK, with some practice, if they decide to go to a mid-level school). The biggest difference for me in school was a consistent, well thought out program (one for the whole country) and books. A…

You’re describing an idea adjacent to “mastery” schooling; it’s the natural method people tend to use when self-taught; it’s also how some online schools, like Khan Academy, use to teach. Both of my kids earn “allowance” (extra screen time; robux; etc.) by doing Khan Academy courses. Watching how unevenly they pick up topics — there’s no rhyme-or-reason to the speed they pick up even “close” skills — makes me think t…

> Both of my kids earn “allowance” (extra screen time; robux; etc.) by doing Khan Academy courses

Highlighting this because I love the idea and can't wait to try it out :-)

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#333

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

donny2018 wrote: post #318

dougSF70 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow American Math doesn't have the same connotations. I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. It is a wasted opportunity for young people to learn the beauty of math.

> I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. Is that for real? If true, this is ridiculous. Do American authorities want to introduce some kind of education for plebs? How is such low standard for basic education is even acceptable in the modern world? It’s not only about “beauty of math” but at least basic math is required to help develop some specific cogn…

Funny you mention that, this was submitted earlier today: Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get diploma

https://www.salemreporter.com/posts/4419/oregon-students-sho...

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#334

Post by guga42k » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

sega_sai wrote: post #210

It's a weird article. I think this idea of 'Russian math' is very nebulous, and is probably used as marketing tool nowadays by some schools abroad. I have graduated from one of the top physics/maths high schools in Russia, and yes we had great math education there, but that was an outlier. Outside a handful of schools the math education is pretty dismal. And even in the good math schools there are different ways of t…

>What definitely exists in Russia (or at least some big cities) is a system of free after-school classes, where you can go and learn how to solve olympiad-type math problems and become more interested in maths

And for people outside of big cities there were schools-by-correspondence famously running by Moscow State University for math and MIPT for math/physics. The setup was you were mailed a small booklet every month. You had to study the material, solve problems and sent solutions back. The solutions were graded and sent back to you. It was great on so many levels. First and the most important aspect it taught discipline and time management. The material was amazing when you were given gradual increase in complexity instead of sheer volume of simple problems or a few olympiad-level problems which can't be solved if you are not there yet.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#335

Post by bordercases » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

What characterizes the French?

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#336

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

handrous wrote: post #302

MattGaiser wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be up on them to the level of a grade school student. That isn't a high level.

They typical standard for a teacher to be certified in a subject at a given grade level, in the US, is to be proficient at least one level higher than that grade level. That ensures you really know the level you're teaching very well, and also have a good understanding of where things are going, so you can offer enrichment to students who need it, and explain motivation behind or direction of certain topics, when ask…

[deleted]

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#337

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #269

tamcap wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an immigrant in the US from Central Europe, I am blown away by how much time American children spend on extracurriculars vs academics (at least based on what I see around me). My extracurriculars in high school were maaaybe 5 hours a week. Some kids in the US spend 5 hours a day, every day. And don't get me started on varsity sports - that starts to resemble a job!

In hindsight, after spending nearly a decade in France (initially for graduate school), it seems very strange to me as well. I've come away from this with the impression that American schools are the best-funded in the world, and survive by importing the best-educated from elsewhere. This is obviously a bit of a caricature, but I think it's mostly correct.

Extracurricular activities are a way for US students to stand out in terms of college admissions. When I was in high school our college advisors told us that Universities look to fill niches in each class year. Good students are relatively interchangeable, but if the University wants a Lacrosse team, an Equestrian team, some Oboe players, and stagehands for its drama department it will look for applicants that have those backgrounds already. So, if you happen to have decent grades but a background in some niche thing, you are much more likely to be selected. So in that sense, going from a B+ to an A- in terms of overall GPA isn't going to help as much as having some in-demand skill.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#338

Post by m23khan » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

In my experience and opinion about studying till High school and then University here in Ontario, Canada:

- Canada seems to be obsessed to maintain high-stats. when it comes to 'literacy rate' - that is why till Grade 12, education is intentionally dumbed-down to the point any kid could just do bare minimum and still pass. Even if the kid is dumb-as-bricks, they can choose to do watered down versions of maths, physics, chemistry and still complete their High School Diploma requirements.

- However, as soon as you enroll into STEM program at University, it is on-par in terms of difficulty with their counterparts elsewhere. What was a easy-peasy style of mathematics taught in Canadian High School makes way to the old 'no-calculator and Professors don't help' style engineering calculus and maths.

This is where I found students who had studied even in 3rd World countries like Pakistan and Eritrea (I kid you not) had advantage in math and science courses throughout their degree program. Heck, it took me few tries to get into the groove but in process wasted 1000s of dollars and couple years trying to retake the courses.

The severe downside is that if your kid has above-average intelligence (as it was in my case) and if they join the Canadian education system at young age (in my case at age 13), by the time majority of these kids become adults, majority of them (as in my case) permanently loose their spark and thus get destined to think only inside the box.

I don't want to rant but another thing I notice is the leniency showed by Canadian Education system when it comes to the whole 'culture' in K-12 years. It is hands down meant to destroy bright minds / make them outcasts. The whole toxic culture of labelling those who are intelligent and/or less fashionable as nerds/geeks/dorks and nonsensical encouragement for sports and arts activities ends up alienating majority of smart kids and many just intentionally dumb themselves down to blend in with their peers.

Had the Canadian education system taken leaf from countries like Singapore/India/Pakistan/Iran/Russia/China and actually made efforts to academically grind their students and to promote discipline (with uniforms and academic competitions leading to glory) - Canada would be producing far more intelligent adults. The current status is: Canada manages to 'import' bright and gifted scientists / university students from all corners of the World and is happy to grant them passports and claim 'Canadians are damn smart' -- what really is smart if you can take army of Canadian children and ensure they are smart-as-heck when they become adults.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#339

Post by foobarian » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #256

spoonjim wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just privileged extraction, but likely high IQ. The Russian brain teasers are to get smart students excelling. The American system is set up to get the weak student stumbling to the finish line. The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers which is why the high achievers are produced by the parents and not by the schools.

What you're describing isn't the US system of education. The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania. > The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers Which…

Any idea how to figure out which camp a particular school is? There are wealthy zip codes with excellent public schools, but there are also crappy private schools so the public/private distinction is not always telling. Scores also don't work because they test dumb rote learning and have become gamed. I would love to find a school where teachers are the kind who know math/other subject "intuition" behind the knowledge like they had in some Soviet schools.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#340

Post by nofinator » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #27

lucas_codes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is dumbing down science teaching the fault of extreme progressive left and not, say, reduced education funding, favouring religious teaching, or even more likely, nuanced policy difficulties that don't fit nicely into a left/right divide?

Here you go: https://www.noodle.com/articles/let-s-get-rid-of-special-edu... Inclusive classrooms raise scores of the lower performing students. That's probably true. It glosses over what it does to people on the other end of the spectrum. As someone from the other end of the spectrum, growing up never having to put any effort, having few or no peers close to my level, and being constantly encouraged by the people ar…

I am sorry you had that experience. Mine was similar (around 1990s).

But these days, integrated classrooms (as mentioned in your article) tend to be staffed with two teachers: one with a general education background and one with special education. They work as a team and can provide differentiated learning paths. The lower teacher/student ratio can help both the gen ed and special ed students.