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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#251

Post by dubcanada »

andi999 wrote: post #120
carlmr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it is ok as a brain teaser, but there will probably be one kid in the class to see it and all the other kids feel dumb or whatever. If you see the trick, you save some time on the calculation. If you don't you have to add some more numbers. It's not that difficult.

Yes, but I am worried if a school uses question which can be solved with a trick that the whole instruction in class starts to revolve around tricks (which naturally will happen since the one kid who sees it will answer first). This trick discussion reminds me of the great anectode about von Neumann: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5950755

Tricks? It's not tricks it's word problems, which is just as important as any other problem. You need to relate math to the real world and having a equation doesn't help, having stuff like Susan is taking a train at 2:32 for 50 kms going 60km/h what time did she get off helps people understand how to turn a real world problem into a math equation to solve it.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#252

Post by kwere »

jjgreen wrote: post #104
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon governor Kate Brown has signed a law that allows students to graduate without proving they can read, write or do math. The law had overwhelming Democrat support & is justified on the basis that it will benefit non-white students. https://thepostmillennial.com/oregon-governor-signs-new-law-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Post_Millennial

this is an ad hominem argument

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#253

Post by tamcap »

omginternets wrote: post #247
maga wrote: post #97

I went through the Soviet/Russian school system with all the advanced topics being covered in high school as others described here. My moment of zen was on my third year in one of the top tech universities in Moscow. There were quite a few students coming from Novosibirsk University who were comfortably ahead of the curve when it came to math. When they showed their transcript ("zachetka"), they had ~3000 hours of Ca…

My wife went through the French "classe préparatoire" system and describes a similar degree of raw effort that was put into her studies (and in particular, mathematics). She talks about spending 10-12 hours a day either in class or studying at home, and I have to admit the amount of knowledge in that woman's head is absolutely astounding. Her education is elite in the same way that a sports team or military unit can…

As an immigrant in the US from Central Europe, I am blown away by how much time American children spend on extracurriculars vs academics (at least based on what I see around me). My extracurriculars in high school were maaaybe 5 hours a week. Some kids in the US spend 5 hours a day, every day. And don't get me started on varsity sports - that starts to resemble a job!

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#254

Post by kwere »

FredPret wrote: post #172
spoonjim wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respect for teachers is a huge part of it. People want status as much as they want money. If culturally America venerated teachers the way it venerates soldiers we’d have fewer wars and smarter people.

Or smarter wars?

make the military teach!

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#255

Post by darepublic »

In grade 8 my teacher basically said they don't do math, gave the students a speech about how you can succeed in life without math, and then declined to teach any math except for handing out a set of math puzzle magazines one time in the middle of the year.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#256

Post by adventured »

spoonjim wrote: post #141
toomanybeersies wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be wary of forming an opinion on foreign education systems from international students, as they're generally of more privileged extraction compared to the unwashed masses who can't afford to study overseas.

Not just privileged extraction, but likely high IQ. The Russian brain teasers are to get smart students excelling. The American system is set up to get the weak student stumbling to the finish line. The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers which is why the high achievers are produced by the parents and not by the schools.

What you're describing isn't the US system of education.

The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania.

> The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers

Which system are you talking about? There is no unified American school system. Nothing remotely close to that concept exists in the US. It's not possible to generalize so broadly. There are many different education systems in the US, varying based on where you live (varying dramatically from one state or city to the next even) and or what your economic capabilities are. Your description, if we were to attempt to utilize it, applies primarily to bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of society, not the top 1/3.

An obvious example would be elite private schools in and around Washington DC. The Washington DC region simultaneously has many of the richest zip codes in the US, and vast tracts of poverty and many horrible public schools. Washington DC, broadly, presents one of the starker examples of the US bifurcation in nearly all things socioeconomic.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#257

Post by maga »

ptero wrote: post #177
maga wrote: post #97

I went through the Soviet/Russian school system with all the advanced topics being covered in high school as others described here. My moment of zen was on my third year in one of the top tech universities in Moscow. There were quite a few students coming from Novosibirsk University who were comfortably ahead of the curve when it came to math. When they showed their transcript ("zachetka"), they had ~3000 hours of Ca…

My personal experience is that it wasn't just hours. Those who liked math spent a lot of time on it after classes. Those who didn't, avoided extras and still did OK (they would not go to top universities, but the base would be OK, with some practice, if they decide to go to a mid-level school). The biggest difference for me in school was a consistent, well thought out program (one for the whole country) and books. A…

That is indeed terrifying.

Not to take away from the importance of a well-thought-out program, learning materials, or competent teachers, I was drawing attention to the immense time and effort that some students would invest often with an institutionalized help.

In our case, the programs were standardized, the textbooks were virtually the same throughout the union. Barred special schools and eccentric teachers, all kids were studying the same things at the same time. What differentiated the bespoken Siberians from us was that order of magnitude difference in the time put in. It challenged my sense of normalcy in many ways: people being this good at math without being apparent geniuses, universities teaching math extra 4 hours a day, realization that there is enough undergrad calculus to last 3K hours.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#258

Post by [deleted] »

omginternets wrote: post #247
maga wrote: post #97

I went through the Soviet/Russian school system with all the advanced topics being covered in high school as others described here. My moment of zen was on my third year in one of the top tech universities in Moscow. There were quite a few students coming from Novosibirsk University who were comfortably ahead of the curve when it came to math. When they showed their transcript ("zachetka"), they had ~3000 hours of Ca…

My wife went through the French "classe préparatoire" system and describes a similar degree of raw effort that was put into her studies (and in particular, mathematics). She talks about spending 10-12 hours a day either in class or studying at home, and I have to admit the amount of knowledge in that woman's head is absolutely astounding. Her education is elite in the same way that a sports team or military unit can…

[deleted]

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#259

Post by BeFlatXIII »

confidantlake wrote: post #248
rcxdude wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue is the curriculum and exams emphasize this kind of rote learning (across the board, not just in maths: one stupid reason for this is many of the markers for the exams don't actually have any qualifications in the subject they're marking and need to be able to just pattern-match off a mark sheet). And because teachers and schools are judged so heavily on exam results, they are not just incentivised but…

Ah that is lame that you had to go through that. I remember in my calc class the teacher said we would spend no time learning for the government standardized test. If you can't already pass it you have no business being in the class.

That was the side benefits of the advanced track of courses in my high school: the teachers openly mocked the test prep requirements.
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