Live data from Hacker News

Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

upi.com

331–340 of 673 posts

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Part of this has to do with how we've been able to drive down agricultural costs by means of automation over the last century which has driven a move away from family farms to larger corporate farms. In 1900, just under 40 percent of the total US population lived on farms, and 60 percent lived in rural areas. Today, the respective figures are only about 1 percent and 20 percent.[1] Sure the coasts are creating more e…

But only a slim slice of rural living is on farms, or are you talking about immigrant Latinos who are left out of the political picture?

The supermajority of people working American farms and meat shops are Latino immigrants.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#332
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your definitions. A lot of people would object to defining urban as encompassing having to drive anywhere except to connect to immediate neighbors. I can basically go to my two immediate neighbors. Otherwise I have to get in a car. Is that urban?

Sounds like a suburb. The real inefficient structures.

In what suburb do you have only two neighbors within walking distance?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#333
post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Often forgotten about "subsidization" of one group to another - which area is more likely to have higher participation in the military and armed forces, and deaths in foreign conflict zones?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you start with the basis that the government will force private companies to take on customers that can't pay for service, EMTALA already does this and I don’t see a push on the right to repeal EMTALA. Universal healthcare is a more efficient model of what is already happening.

I also don't see a push from republicans to repeal social security. That doesn't mean it isn't a socialist policy.

Repealing social security has been a wink-wink, nudge-nudge part of the unspoken Republican platform since social security was created.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes all votes were based on race and that voting for a white person makes you racist and voting for a black person makes you not racist. There is just so much wrong with that.

Your response is disgustingly incorrect. President Obama's election as the first black president certainly included significant racial elements. When comparing it to Clinton vs Dole in 1996, Clinton lost the white vote 42% to 44% (1). Obama lost the white vote 43% to 55% (2). Both Clinton and Obama won by 8% differences. Yes, not voting for the black candidate over the white candidate doesn't make you racist. But to…

You left out something important. In 1996, Clinton won the African-American vote 84% to 12%. In 2008, Obama won the African-American vote 95% to 4%. That's a far larger difference.

You're right: let's not ignore race. By your own logic, if you're saying the white polling numbers show white racism, then you have to admit that the African American polling numbers show far more extreme racism on the part of African Americans.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#336
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another weird border situation played out in the "Oblong" where a botched Colonial land survey created a kind of no-man's land between New York State, Connecticut, and the southwest corner of Massachusetts. How it got resolved related to an utterly bizarre incident in the 1850s. https://anchor.fm/lostmass/episodes/The-Lost-Corner-AKA-Hell...

Michigan and Ohio once went to war over Toledo.

Each tried to make the other take it....

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#337
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except a lot on the left is driven by data.

Banning plastic straws, asserting that men should compete against women in sports if they identify as women, and eliminating SAT scores doesn't seem like a science-driven approach, but more of a faith-based science-denialism.

> doesn't seem like a science-driven approach, but more of a faith-based science-denialism.

Only if you are deliberately framing these points that way. I'll try to explain how these points can actually be explained as science-driven

> Banning plastic straws

In the US alone, 500M straws were used per day (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/news-...). Given that many of these end up in the environment as consumers simply discard the container wherever they are walking, this is a serious reduction in litter.

> asserting that men should compete against women in sports if they identify as women

This one is a really hard debate, however... hormone distribution varies enormously between the two major biological genders so we're already (effectively) selecting athletes with the "best" ratios. Add to that people with intergender bodies (e.g. XY chromosome set but fully presenting as "female", XX chromosomes but have "male" body parts), and it becomes a real mess to define what is a male, what is a female and where a specific individual should be allowed to compete in - even if you're only going by purely biological metrics (hormone levels, appearance of gender-specific body parts). Add to that the "faith-based" stuff aka social gender norms and gender equality/anti-discrimination, and it gets very messy very soon.

tl;dr: for this point, there cannot ever be a "scientific consent" on what's correct and what's wrong. Personally I'd argue for a body-weight differentiation in sports (as it's done in boxing) instead of gender-based, since that way you have at least some common factor that is closely linked with physical strength.

> and eliminating SAT scores

Scoring of almost all kinds has provable issues - and especially in education:

- social background has massive effects on scores: rich parents can afford a lot of things closely linked to higher educational outcome such as private tutors, each child having their own room from a young age, send their children to well-funded public or private schools, or offering a stress-free environment for the child in general whereas poor parents are stuck with whatever the public school system offers, children often not having their own rooms which means they can't effectively learn if their baby sibling is crying in "their" room, and parents passing on their stress (poverty, overcrowding, homelessness, messy divorces, domestic violence) onto their children

- ethnic background: children of minorities have been proven to be discriminated against by teachers even at a young age, not to mention stuff like systemic under-funding of schools in geographic areas where school funding is based on the taxable income of the people living in this area, which is (again) closely linked to ethnic background as a result of segregation and gentrification

- government background: additionally to that, public schools may differ wildly in quality of teaching based on the funding priorities of county and state

- scoring leads to teachers "teaching for the test" aka "bulimia learning" instead of actual long-lasting knowledge transfer. This is something tests aren't primarily at fault for, but nevertheless play an important role

- scoring disproportionally affects students with mental health problems (e.g. test phobia), with dyslexia / dyscalculia and other learning impediments, and also those whose talents are outside of language and math

tl;dr: scoring is deeply flawed as a concept, where especially children from poor backgrounds (no matter if the family or the government is poor) suffer from massive discrimination.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#338
post #323
post #220

The US constitution requires that, for this to happen, Congress, the Oregon legislature, and the Idaho legislature must all agree. There's no provision that it is a matter that local country residents get to decide.

Time for a constitutional amendment to curb non-consensual government. State and federal government should have a generational opt in.

We have have that every two years: it’s called elections.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republican Reagan signed EMTALA which makes it so hospitals can’t refuse service in emergencies due to ability to pay. It stopped people from dying in the street. They did not fund this new mandate and so we currently pay for this through higher insurance premiums and county/municipal emergency service budgets. Universal healthcare would be a more efficient way to pay for an already existing benefit. When uninsured c…

I live in a predominantly right-leaning area and know a lot of people who are against universal healthcare. I've talked with a lot of them about it, and every single person would be in favor of it if there was a magical guarantee the money would actually be spent properly and not corruptly misallocated. But the track record is so poor, and there is such little transparency, that they have no trust whatsoever. I can h…

Wait until those same people find out how private health insurance works. It's not fair to hate on public healthcare in a vacuum without comparing it to the horrendous private system we have now. Then it doesn't look very bad, corrupt, or opaque at all.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#340
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geez, they aren't even hiding that they're gerrymandering for a jumbo Republican state (with the added "benefit" that the remaining OR and CA will become even more Democrat). Exactly what the US needs in 2021. I'm half amused and half horrified.

Gerrymandering has to do with influencing representation in the US Congress. I think this has more to do with state government, particularly the ability for more people to live under the type of state government they would prefer. Portlanders would probably prefer an even more liberal state government than Oregon already has while eastern Oregonians evidently prefer the Idaho state government to their own. I sincerel…

I think "you live under your laws, we live under our laws" is a cop-out that's never going to work as intended. 33% of Idaho voted for Biden in 2020. Unless you're OK with disenfranchising 1/3 of voters, you're not going to have your ideal government. (Of course they same can be said for places like CA - all the more reason why states shouldn't be divided over partisan lines.)
Post reply on HN