Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#331

Post by antioink » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:03 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #293

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

It's unquestionably a lynching. But this is what this perverted culture tolerates. Rather than the public participating in the lynching directly, it has hired professional lynchers.

True, and I think there are lot of deniers of how the racist history of the US influences its racist present.

The mindset that permits people to shrug off the killing of Elijah McClain, and assume he must have done something to deserve it, is the same that celebrated public lynchings.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#332

Post by salawat » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #278

john_moscow wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May you share some details on that, because, with all due respect, it sounds unrealistic. Unless you've omitted some big piece of the puzzle.

Sure, I don't mind; it was something like 15 years ago anyway, and obviously didn't amount to anything in the first place. Baltimore PD officers wear black uniforms. One night one of them was standing in the middle of the street I was driving down, and there weren't enough streetlights in that section. I was doing something like 40 in a 30, and the first thing I knew that anything was wrong was when I heard a loud th…

>So I pulled over and got out, because of course I did; I saw no personal benefit in complicating my upcoming arrest with a chase.

>not been easily "read" as an "upstanding citizen" type, I'd have been in a hell of a lot of trouble.

This may have had more to do with with him waving you off than anything else. The type of people police are purportedly there to handle are not those who would do what you did. If this is Baltimore we're talking about, he may be tuned to a much more violent type of normal criminal encounter. Keep in mind that given the limited resources of the judicial system, they are better spent on more disruptive crimes to the social fabric.

Perspective is important in these things. Those that come to you to be dealt with are practically priority zero. They know they screwed up, and as long as you (the officer) is okay, then all's good. They'll sort themselves out.

It's the ones that don't the police are out and willing to do paperwork for.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#333

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #287

wonderwonder wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it is entirely fair to put 100% of the blame on the police. A much healthier solution would be to try de-escalating general tensions between the police and the population." Right, its not the fault of the armed people with godlike power to kill, arrest and detain to their hearts content based on nothing but a feeling or bias. Its the fault of the people being harassed and killed for not properly genufl…

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

Just to give some local context about Portland. We're getting some reforms pushed through, and it's now very likely the Mayor will lose his runoff election to someone that has promised far more substantial reforms. That said, the police continue to behave in unaccountable ways including blatantly violating the law on camera. This is going to be a very prolonged fight for reform.

Explaining how the US got to this state is a long discussion, but it helps to understand the origin of the police here in the south was to catch escaping slaves, and in the north was to keep "undesirables" out of wealthy neighborhoods. In more recent times politicians have used the War On Crime rhetoric to motivate people out of fear to vote for them, even though actual violent crime has been steadily falling.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#334

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #277

newacct583 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack. And this, for the benefit of folks here who still want to treat these incidents as individual aberrations, is what BLM is about. Sure, police can be good or bad, sometimes make mistakes, etc... But POLICING , as it is practiced in this…

> I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. I don't agree with everything but the ideas outlined here https://www.joincampaignzero.org are a good start. Some communities are in much worse situation than others and I think new leadership is urgently needed in many of these places (i.…

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#335

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #147

wonderwonder wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In america if the police are killing you, resisting that death is a crime. If someone had attempted to stop the police from killing George Floyd, they would have been arrested and charged. You can imagine the confusion that arises when plain clothes police seize people.

In most countries you can get off the hook for pretty much anything if you had a good reason to fear for your life. In some countries it's even enough that a police officer is acting (obviously) unlawfully, giving you the right to resist.[1] [1]: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__32.html

In my country (Canada), using firearms for self-defence is almost universally regarded as illegal. However, when police officers exerted a no-knock warrant on the wrong person, and they defended themselves using firearms, they were found illegal, because it was judged that armed intruders violently barging through and threatening you in your home is one of the rare cases where the situation is so outrageous that it is justified. In the US, despite owning guns for self-defence being legal, you will be found guilty of murder for this, and certainly be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#336

Post by klyrs » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

antioink wrote: post #324

scarface74 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s not about abolishing the police. “Defund the police”, which I agree is a bad term, is about focusing some of those funds on social programs and only calling the police for true criminal causes. I am definitely not a conservative on most issues, but I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it…

> I am a strong believer in the right to have a gun in your own home and the various “Castle” laws. If you break into my house or try to take my car while I am in it, I am going to assume you mean me harm. Shoot first then call the cops. Do you know how absurd this sounds to people in actual civilized countries? Kind of amazing how many of you Americans are living in some Wild West fantasy.

Othering and belittling pours gas on an already polarized topic. If you can't talk about the issue without going there, then you aren't equipped to change minds. If the [keyboard] is mightier than the [gun], then one must show even more restraint in its employ.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#337

Post by hellomyguys » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #286

I guess most people here have never been in public safety or law enforcement. The number of drug-addled, violent, danger-to-themselves-and-others people encountered in the US is unusually high and increasing. This is compounded by the inability (right now) of the justice system to either put them into either suitable treatment programs (with mandatory detention, essentially) or incarcerate them (a gradual but steady…

Look at the bodycam video[1] of this "arrest." Everything that happened to that man was a tragedy, not for any of the reasons you listed. It was a gross misuse of force against a completely innocent person. They treated him like he was subhuman and fabricated a storyline that led to his death.

Even more disgusting, they went back to the site of arrest to take a selfie [2], essentially mocking this dead man.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uI9cBHgCS4 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/us/Elijah-McClain-aurora-...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#338

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

projektfu wrote: post #190

p0llard wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to a judge or a police officer, probably not I'd naively hope that a judge wouldn't side with a police officer here, but I think the fact that resisting arrest is inherently criminal is a pretty big flaw in the US legal system. I live in a jurisdiction [1] where resisting arrest is not criminalised in the same sense as the US, and the idea that a police officer could unlawfully arrest you and then immedia…

Since the '70s it feels like law enforcement (and juries to some extent) are informed by two movies much more than the Constitution and case law: Dirty Harry and Death Wish.

https://youtu.be/MF--2o71w44

This is a pretty good video analysing law enforcement and how it got to become the way it is through the analysis of Dirty Harry.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#339

Post by hellomyguys » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #232

notassigned wrote: post #197

I don't think it's helpful to assume the police were racist.

I've googled up the bodycam videos of the incident [0]. I think, the police started acting the way they did, because the suspect didn't stop when the police clearly asked him to do so, and pushed one of the officers when they grabbed him. It would be fair to call it racism, if there was another instance of a white suspect acting the same way, and getting treated differently. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ncye…

Ok what about when they took a selfie at the site of the incident, essentially mocking Elijiah's McClain's death?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/us/Elijah-McClain-aurora-...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#340

Post by puranjay » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #268

tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death. This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer. Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extrem…

> The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death

What compels someone to do that?