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Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

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Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#331

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

Bad whale design!

Whales filter plankton out of millions of gallons of water but now they also end up eating plastic.

We need to emulate whale design and power them through wind and solar energy then clean up the ocean.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#332

These stories rarely mention this for some reason but the bulk of the plastic junk in the ocean is discarded fishing nets, not consumer waste. Reducing the plastic waste you personally generate is still a good idea, of course, but if you really want to have an impact then stop eating fish. https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/ocean-plastic-made-disca... https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga...

That seems draconian; there's no way to buy other sources of fish (farmed, local, etc) that doesn't contribute to the problem of ocean pollution?

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#333
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding of the tragedy of the commons is not accurate. Cases of pollution in public waters are typically prime examples of tragedies of the commons. Just because it's a "negative economic externality" does not mean that it is not a tragedy of the commons. Even the wiki page for tragedy of the commons lists "water pollution" as an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Example... Maxi…

Still, I disagree, the mainstay of Tragedy of the Commons is about resource management through regulation, which does not apply well to oceans plastics. The "Water Pollution" example provided is about water management for the purposes of irrigation, and pollution of groundwater that needed for said irrigation. Ocean plastics could be different, if its just the systematic degradation of an ecosystem, orthogonal to res…

:smh:

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.

> Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are they able to do this without any special supplements on modern farms though (e.g. with cows on antibiotics eating grain instead of grass)? > Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't fin…

As far as I can tell cows can still produce B12 with the help of their symbiotic bacteria and digestive tract, and humans can't.

The point is that it takes a lot of attention and artificial help to have a healthy vegan diet. That's not great for children or half-committed adults.

Eating meat, or at least eggs or dairy, cuts out a lot of that effort. The animals have already done the work of turning a vegan diet into the large variety of nutrients that we need.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#335
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't China buy up a lot of US / EU plastic waste via recycling programmes? Are these numbers offset because once China buys the waste, they simply dump it? Are we knowingly selling our plastic waste to a state that will miss-manage it? I know China lately has stopped buying plastic waste from states.

You obviously have access to the internet. Feel free to look it up before posting instead of clogging the comments with things that might be true.

Please don't cross into incivility in comments here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind vegetarian. I rarely eat meat and never crave for it. However vegan just sounds horrible. Eggs and cheeses are incredible, milk, fish, prawns. Cutting them out feels like cutting half of the nutrients out of my diet. I wouldn't risk it unless I had very extensive knowledge and dedication to human dietary requirements and what which plants can provide, which I don't have and won't have.

With a vegan diet, you need vitamin B12 supplements. Take a multi-vitamin supplement, some linseed oil for the essential fatty acids and maybe some mineral supplement if appropriate according to the blood test. You should do that anyway no matter your diet. Dr Garth Davis: Americans have become obsessed with Protein https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQCt3IhaUtU&feature=youtu.be...

Fermented foods such as kimchi and sauerkraut can supply B12, as can seaweed and some other foods.

So it is possible.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Tragedy of the Commons is a situation that is about the management of wildlife and natural resources for the purposes of maximizing yield, with the lesson being regulated consumption results in maximal natural harvest. Pollution is just a negative economic externality, or consequence of an action that is unseen by the participants, where more pollution is always worse. Unfortunately, no one owns the ocean…

More pollution isn’t necessarily worse. The polluting activity can produce benefits that outweigh the harm of the pollution. Pollution is directly analogous to the standard Tragedy of the Commons scenario of a shared pasture, where the pasture equates to the environment, the cows are industry, and grazing the cows in the common pasture equates to industry producing pollution.

the pasture equates to environment, the cows are industry [...]

That's your problem right there. You're treating the cows as somehow separate from the environment. For this example, let's consider the pasture as an island so that you have nowhere else to go. The actual externality of cows eating grass is poop, which fertilizes the soil to some degree but can poison it in excess. Overgrazing is not an externality as such; it's depletion, and then all your cows die and so do you. Maybe you get to eat a few of the cows while you wait for more grass to grow but after they're gone you won't be able to live on the grass. The benefits of temporarily having more cows than you can sustainably graze is an illusion, because you can't eat them all as soon as the grass runs out. You too are part of the ecosystem.

(Ok, in the real world you have other land available, trade, and so on. But that just distributes the problem over a large population and area, postponing the point where carrying capacity becomes an issue. And more often than not, profits are retained by one party while pollution is dumped on another whose suffering the profiteer has no desire to alleviate. In this example that particular cheat code is not operational.)

There are two reasons this might happen: external forcing of the ecosystem (drought, being hit by a meteor etc.), or letting your herd expand faster than the pasture can grow new grass, which is essentially borrowing time from the future and dying when you've done so. The uncertain risk of external forcing inclines us to hedge against its possibility by accumulating excess, but since the known and increasing risk of feedback can't be directly compared with the uncertain external risk people tend to 'rationalize it' by making irrational appeals to possibility rather than probability. The most obvious example of this today is people who object to any and all environmental regulation by dismissing predictions of environmental problems as too vague while simultaneously insisting that mitigating them will definitely lead to economic catastrophe, even though weather and climate modeling is considerably more rigorous than economic modeling and the extremely harsh and obvious value and life destruction of environmental disasters.

More pollution is necessarily worse. You can hedge it in the short term, but in the long term you mitigate it or you die - and while in the long run, we are all dead, dying faster than you need to is maladaptive. Running the system too fast increases entropy and that is a one-way ticket.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a vegan diet, you need vitamin B12 supplements. Take a multi-vitamin supplement, some linseed oil for the essential fatty acids and maybe some mineral supplement if appropriate according to the blood test. You should do that anyway no matter your diet. Dr Garth Davis: Americans have become obsessed with Protein https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQCt3IhaUtU&feature=youtu.be...

Fermented foods such as kimchi and sauerkraut can supply B12, as can seaweed and some other foods. So it is possible.

AFAIK there are no good vegan sources of vitamin B12 except vegan vitamin B12 supplements.

All experts recommend vitamin B12 supplements for vegans, vegetarians and older people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17959839

https://www.b12-vitamin.com/algae/

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency:

> Vitamin B12 deficiency in the US and the UK is estimated to occur in about 6 percent of those under the age of 60, and 20 percent of those over the age of 60.[1] In Latin America rates are estimated at 40 percent and they may be as high as 80 per cent in parts of Africa and Asia.[1]

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#339
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not answer the question, but the fact that even ruminant offspring rely on milk to supplement their nutrition I think should at least create skepticism

Vegans aren't against breastfeeding.

Ruminants are by definition able to produce all necessary nutrition in their gut. That was the point.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#340
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that is good advice. Fixing the fishing industry is important, overfishing is rampant as is plastic waste from it. But fish is probably one of the best alternatives we have to other environmentally unfriendly meats we currently raise. As populations grow it is proving to be key to keeping everyone fed. Farmed fish most importantly will soon be the majority of fish consumed. Getting ocean based fishing t…

Then stop eating fish and meat, you can be healthy taking care of your environment and without killing any animal. Everything you are saying are still environmentally unfriendly options.

> stop eating fish and meat, you can be healthy taking care of your environment and without killing any animal.

Sadly, this is an illusion. All agriculture is based on killing animals and distroying biodiversity, and if scaling to cover all population, would lead us to a world plenty of Fabian Tomasi.

Many vegetarians just take the choice to be blind to the huge problems with soy culture (for example), but those problems are not trivial at all.

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