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No tipping means better business

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Re: No tipping means better business

#331

Post by nommm-nommm »

illumin8 wrote: post #286
thoughtsimple wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is almost certainly going to rarely happen. Almost no server feels empowered enough to insist on this. And restaurant owners will start insisting on collecting and counting cash tips so they can fully account for the wages. No server wants their boss counting their cash tips. At least in Massachusetts, declared tips is self reported.

I've even seen something very shady recently - a nice restaurant that added a mandatory 20% "service fee" to our party of 7, had fine print that said "60% of your service fee goes to your wait staff." The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their empl…

Hopefully the hostess and back of the house was tipped out with that 40%. It's also likely that 40% went into the owner's pocket though because that's totally legal! Since it was a non-negotiable service fee the DOL doesn't consider it gratuity (as gratuity is strictly optional) so they don't have to pass it on to their staff. I've seen this happen plenty of times, usually in the catering business, though not to the extent of 40%, usually around 5-10%.

Re: No tipping means better business

#332

Post by isaac_is_goat »

Spooky23 wrote: post #295
vkjv wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

That rarely gets enforced. Employers don't want to pay, employees want to enhance their wages by not paying taxes.

And in many cases, not reporting your tips as income and paying income tax on them is illegal...of course, not much chance of getting caught.

Re: No tipping means better business

#333

Post by X86BSD »

grecy wrote: post #181
ezoe wrote: post #58

As a person who was born and living in a country which has no tipping culture. The tipping sucks. I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I purchase something or some service. Any extra demand from agreed amount should be illegal. I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax. The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker becom…

Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's disgusting. When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this. Of course, they might not too. Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should b…

Tipping is supposed to be for exceptional service.

For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.

If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.

Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.

Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.

Re: No tipping means better business

#334

Post by X86BSD »

grecy wrote: post #181
ezoe wrote: post #58

As a person who was born and living in a country which has no tipping culture. The tipping sucks. I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I purchase something or some service. Any extra demand from agreed amount should be illegal. I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax. The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker becom…

Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's disgusting. When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this. Of course, they might not too. Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should b…

Tipping is supposed to be for exceptional service.

For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.

If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.

Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.

Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.

Re: No tipping means better business

#335

Post by nommm-nommm »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #289
illumin8 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've even seen something very shady recently - a nice restaurant that added a mandatory 20% "service fee" to our party of 7, had fine print that said "60% of your service fee goes to your wait staff." The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their empl…

> keeping 40% of it for the owner Depending on the city and state, this could be illegal. I'd encourage you to ask the server if the 40% goes to the kitchen or the owner. If the latter, write a letter or make a call to your labour law enforcement group.

It's not illegal.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf

>A compulsory charge for service, for example, 15 percent of the bill, is not a tip. Such charges are part of the employer's gross receipts. Sums distributed to employees from service charges cannot be counted as tips received, but may be used to satisfy the employer's minimum wage and overtime obligations under the FLSA. If an employee receives tips in addition to the compulsory service charge, those tips may be considered in determining whether the employee is a tipped employee and in the application of the tip credit.

Re: No tipping means better business

#336

Post by lostphilosopher »

vkjv wrote: post #261
radmuzom wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it very funny when people argue that increasing the minimum wage would increase costs for consumers (I don't necessarily disagree; in some cases it would, whether that is a bad thing is a different matter). I personally would pay a higher price, no tips and ensure that the workers serving can meet their basic needs via wages alone.

Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

This idea of "making up the difference" comes up in every convo on tipping. The counter point is usually that it doesn't happen. (Debate ensues...)

But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle.

I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.

Re: No tipping means better business

#337

Post by k-mcgrady »

X86BSD wrote: post #333
grecy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's disgusting. When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this. Of course, they might not too. Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should b…

Tipping is supposed to be for exceptional service. For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip. If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip. Getting good serv…

>> "If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly

This shouldn't be considered exceptional. It's what I'm paying for and should not require tipping.

>> if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times

I understand you included 'appropriate' but this is honestly the thing that irritates me most about tipping culture. When I visit the US the barrage of 'how is everything etc.' throughout every meal drives me insane. Leave me alone to enjoy the food and conversation, stop interrupting it.

Re: No tipping means better business

#338

Post by ecnal »

zuppy wrote: post #131
turndown wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked as both a server and a delivery driver, and even after having left both jobs I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job. The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has. That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping. Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.

I don't think it does. Tipping is expected even if a bad service is being provided. I live in a country where you have to give tips everywhere and everywhere the service is awful. Why not be fair and pay the employee well (and also pay taxes for that amount). edit: I was thinking about how to award good employees and I think it's simple: give a small paper form at the end, where people will provide ratings for the se…

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053535700...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0148296301...

While tipping is not an enormous driver of service quality (primarily for the reason you mentioned—that tips are expected even when service is poor), it does appear to be correlated with better service to some degree.

Re: No tipping means better business

#339

Post by amsilprotag »

dorfsmay wrote: post #220

Tipping is about the perception of social class and giving the buyer the perception of having power over others, by giving them a mini power-trip. In no other circumstances is a unilateral and after the fact negotiation acceptable. Would YOU work for a variable salary with no clear criteria on what affect it, no guarantee of salary regardless of your skills an effort and for which studies have shown that the colour o…

The problem is that two equilibria exist. The equilibrium of a tipping culture is reinforced by high-performing wait staff. If one restaurant or one city adopts a no-tipping policy, the well-tipped will move, the poorly-tipped will stay, and quality will suffer. The other problem is that the tipping culture has created many extrinsically motivated workers. Cultures without tipping require people who intrinsically perform well, but years of living under the carrot and stick of tipping has produced transactional workers.

The no-tipping equilibrium perpetuates because most customers don't like the math and decision-making required after every meal. And most workers don't like being put into a Skinner box. And finally, the best wait staff in no-tipping cultures don't realize how much they're subsidizing the worst wait staff.

We as a society simply fell into the worse equilibrium. The only solution is a national edict, but this likely won't happen because there isn't the political will, and the beneficiaries of the current system know who they are and what they'd lose.

Re: No tipping means better business

#340

Post by dclowd9901 »

It doesn't matter. People will _still_ tip. While the vast majority of us _hate_ tipping, there are some out there who absolutely live by it emotionally (I'm talking about the tippers here), and maintain a healthy amount of guilt if they don't tip.

Case in point: One of the biggest wins of Uber was to remove the tip concept from getting a ride. It made the whole experience effortless and seamless. Portland being Portland, however, has drivers who post placards in their cars suggesting tipping (against what I thought was company policy), and riders buy into it, as you can't possibly exist in Portland without constantly trying to be the nicest person on the planet.

Mark my words: if this happens, restaurants will charge 15-30% more and we will simply start tipping on _top_ of that.

Hell, even during my last trip to Germany, I noticed an expectation for tips.

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