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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#321

Post by BlargMcLarg »

onion2k wrote: post #263
dt3ft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t even push to a git repo unless it has a linked work item/story/task/bug. So, in order to say, upgrade packages or refactor difficult to read code, the work item needs to be approved by a non-tech PO. Guess how much gets done outside of planned/micromanaged? Answer: next to nothing.

Guess how much would get done if you learned to explain why that work is important to a non-technical colleague? Lots. People don't always understand code, but they do understand problems, and why those problems are important to keep on top of. If your PO is sensible then a couple of paragraphs explaining why refactoring is important with a closing line that says spending a week catching up on refactoring now will sa…

>Guess how much would get done if you learned to explain why that work is important to a non-technical colleague? Lots.

From my experience, this is more a cop-out than anything else. At some point I'd expect you understand children with a track record of doing as they are told and informing you of important details do not need to be strictly parented around every corner. To expect that very thing from adults with way bigger incentives to behave feels off.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#323

Post by goodpoint »

Gigachad wrote: post #59
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history

In US for sure. But there are many other places where you get a better balance between learning/working/salary in other jobs.

Not to mention the notoriously higher rate of burnout in the industry, even in the US.

The people in this threads making huge overgeneralizations might be indeed overpaid.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#324

Post by whimsicalism »

Patrol8394 wrote: post #316
whimsicalism wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they keep all bad people out? No. But I have never encountered a company that doesn't have a on-the-spot technical interview (involving coding or math) that has had more success keeping bad engineers out than FAANG.

You can implement all kind of interview processes, you will always end up hiring candidates that turns out to be not a good fit. I am arguing that LC/FAANG interview does not do a better job at filtering them out. The solution: accept that you will do bad hiring, but that you will let them go as well. Instead, everyone want to be politically correct and the play safe. So people are hardly let go. Also working at FAAN…

ah right, leetcode interviews are a woke/politically correct practice promulgated by fake talented FAANG engineers to keep out the real salt of the earth SWEs who know how to do real work.

it's fascinating how these playbooks can recycle themselves in any number of scenarios. yes, conditioning on being an engineer at FAANG you are much more likely to get a better engineer, I'm not going to apologize for saying the truth.

e: not going to keep replying, I seem to recall getting in previous fruitless arguments with you when you suggested banning renting was the way out of California's housing crisis.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#325

Post by tboyd47 »

JackMorgan wrote: post #5

A fascinating premise, and matches what I saw as an engineering director. The best just get bored and move on. I think many teams are unaware how much extra value is possible by retaining existing employees vs hiring new ones. Each year I'd try to make sure I was "making them an offer they couldn't refuse" with new interesting challenges, new tech, plenty of personal research time, as much pay increase as I could pos…

It's not even that they get bored, it's that they're comfortable with their tools and don't feel like doing the mandatory re-tool every 5 years.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#327

Post by xtracto »

pkdpic wrote: post #175
highwaylights wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, I agree with you that on the whole we're a bunch of spoiled crybabies. Totally grant you that. On the other hand, saying that the majority of the population is grinding in tough physical labour is just not true. Most other jobs are generic office jobs that don't need to be done (just like 80%+ of software engineering jobs don't need to be done). Most of us are just doing things for money. Are most people…

Also, have you all tried making a non-swe career work lately? How about for 5+ years? In the last two years I've worked with hundreds of bootcamp students who have reached the end of their rope with 20th century career paths that no longer make any f-ing sense. From teachers to construction workers to bartenders to graphic designers. Not all of them have a deep love for writing software, but all of them recognize tha…

I saw this as well as someone who hired from "Bootcamps" graduates for a couple of years. The people that got into bootcamps came from all sorts of professions. Most of them had a Bachellor degree (this is in Mexico) and had already worked in their profession for some time.

There were people from Tourism, Law, (non-software) Engineering, Biologists, Chemists, Philosophy, among others.

Most of the people in those areas were burned out of REALLY being overworked, underpaid and being treated like trash (you should see how Law firms treat their interns).

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#328

Post by sebastianconcpt »

This is super interesting. One of the reasons why I got to develop my strongest CS skill into Smalltalk (a puristic niche technology) is because I've understood that working with it makes easier the maximization of what is timeless and the minimization of what ages faster than fish out of the fridge (libraries).

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#329

Post by svachalek »

62951413 wrote: post #310
t_mann wrote: post #73

Some really good points on the ultra-fast depreciation of SE tech skills. A relative of mine is a mechanical engineer, well past retirement age and still going strong in his 2-man consulting shop because that's what he loves doing. He works with precision manufacturers, automotive suppliers,... all very cutting-edge stuff, helping them develop new product lines, manufacturing processes,... He says the core skills tha…

In the last 20 years I have seen mostly ultra-fast depreciation of SE _interviewing_ skills. After the first ten years software development becomes quite intuitive and you internalize all those best practices. You can be trusted to start a new service from an empty git repository. Later it gets incremental, there's a lot of path dependency in languages and frameworks and few things come out of the blue. Those that do…

Very true. This stuff started at places like Google and Facebook and it makes a sort of sense for them as right or wrong they're very focused on hiring new college grads. With no real work experience to speak of you can do a lot worse than hire the ones that show they can apply their CS coursework to leetcode problems.

But doing the same to workers with 10 years of real world experience doesn't make nearly as much sense. Like hiring medical doctors by quizzing them on organic chemistry problems. Google and Facebook do it because they can and they don't know what else to do, but I don't understand how it became a universal practice.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#330

Post by [deleted] »

ed_elliott_asc wrote: post #168
spicymaki wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. I do understand the issue. Humans are prone to complain about any slight whether real or imagined. Millionaires will complain about not having enough money, A-list celebrities will complain about not having enough visibility, sports stars will complain about every foul play. Money ju…

The thing that really crystallises how spoilt we are is: https://nohello.club/ We take ourselves so seriously we cannot afford the time for someone to be polite!

[deleted]
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