Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#321

Post by stevenjohns » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:03 AM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #229

stevenjohns wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ridiculously short sighted and bordering on racist. Let's bomb all of Israel's infrastructure, arm various militias in the country and put economic sanctions on them for 20 years that limits the country to a grain-for-food programme and you'll quickly see Israel join in as a regional "basketcase."

> That's ridiculously short sighted and bordering on racist. Now, here's a true, actual, case of using accusations of racism to avoid criticism. The post you responded to said nothing about guilt. You could (absurdly) blame the West entirely for the region's state - but most ME countries are still basketcases regardless of who's fault it is (and plenty of it obviously goes to the locals, e.g. Lebanon being a great ex…

Lebanon is quite possibly the worst example you could give, not only due to Israel playing a key role in the country's instability[0] but also to the fact that the areas that were shielded by Israel and the West were immediately experienced economic and political stability[1].

Israel in and of itself is a "basketcase" country that continues to operate the world's largest open-air prison, flaunting every international directive with complete disregard for the UN and operates an apartheid-like system that sees it constantly at war with almost every other nation in the Middle East. It has been entrenched in civil war since its inception but somehow that's not enough to be considered a "basketcase" -- apparently.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Fence

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#322

Post by Guthur » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:25 AM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #149

Guthur wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets to define the greater good? We had share morals at one time with religion but that's been tore down relentless so what are those shared ideals now. The fact of the matter is that eradication is impossible so what are we actually trying to achieve here. Reduce impact on health care? Maybe we should ban smoking and alcohol then or maybe MacDonalds, where is the line?

> The fact of the matter is that eradication is impossible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderpest And in-progress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_eradication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_dracunculiasis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria Your claim is empirically false.

Sorry none of those are corona virus, that's what covid is in case you were not aware, so your empirical evidence is nonsense.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#323

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:50 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #306

joelbluminator wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.

> How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.

It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#324

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:57 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #313

skinkestek wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948…

After the war the international community pressured Israel into letting the Palestinian refugees return home. The famous UN Resolution 194 was an attempt to settle the Palestine question and to demand of Israel that it let the refugees repatriate. But the racist Israeli leaders didn't want non-Jews in their state. "Only Jews have a right of return to Israel", Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion declared. To shiel…

> But the racist Israeli leaders didn't want non-Jews in their state

Is it solely about racism, really? You're talking as if there weren't around 50 years of mutual blood shedding before that moment, or that all surrounding Arab states didn't invade Israel to destroy it. The Jews had a good reason not to trust Palestinian intentions towards them (See the Grand Mufhti's meetings with Hitler to help find a "solution" to the Jewish problem for example). In fact the Palestinians refused to split the land twice, on 1937 and again on 1947 and then they started a war, what good would it have done to let them back - to have another civil war all over again?

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#325

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:07 AM UTC

nebula8804 wrote: post #311

radycov wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (i…

At least you're honest about wanting to dismantle Israel, could be nice if we got rid of the 1967 border/settlements bullshit. The "occupation" doesn't mean crap to the hard left, it's all occupation.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#326

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

nebula8804 wrote: post #311

radycov wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (i…

> Its going to take decades though.

Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#327

Post by skinkestek » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:34 AM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #318

bjourne wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the war the international community pressured Israel into letting the Palestinian refugees return home. The famous UN Resolution 194 was an attempt to settle the Palestine question and to demand of Israel that it let the refugees repatriate. But the racist Israeli leaders didn't want non-Jews in their state. "Only Jews have a right of return to Israel", Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion declared. To shiel…

> Erskine Childers in his classic article The Other Exodus from 1963 went through transcripts of radio broadcasts in Palestine during 1948 and couldn't find a single instance of an order by Arab leaders calling for them to leave. This is interesting. I'll stop writing that. (Or until I can get proof of it.)

Ok, I had to look this up.

It would be astounding to me if this was true but I also cannot square the idea of a genocide of Arabs within Israeli borders with the fact that there are many more Arabs inside Israel today than before 1948.

I still haven't made up my mknd on this, but here is what I found:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=did+arab+leaders+ask+arabs+to+leav...

There is a lot of information there but the most interesting (too me at least since it partially contractict my llng beld beliefs) was what I found by following the Wikipedia result one step further to this page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestini...

This page mostly supports bjourne but interestingly is also full of quotes that support what I learned:

> Furthermore, in his comprehensive book on the Arab–Israeli conflict, Righteous Victims, Morris wrote:

>> In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages ... were abandoned during these months as a result of such orders. Elsewhere, in East Jerusalem and in many villages around the country, the [Arab] commanders ordered women, old people, and children to be sent away to be out of harm's way.... [T]he AHC and the Arab League had periodically endorsed such a move when contemplating the future war in Palestine.[174]

> In a 2003 interview with Haaretz, Morris summed up the conclusions of his revised edition of The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem: "In the months of April–May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves. At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages."[175]

> The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the 8 March 1948 instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes and move to areas "far away from the dangers. Any opposition to this order ... is an obstacle to the holy war ... and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts."[176]

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#328

Post by wizzwizz4 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

effie wrote: post #298

raxxorrax wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a democracy so I am partially responsible for anything my government does. Even and especially when it does something I don't like.

Yes if you voted for that government, otherwise no.

I'd argue you still have responsibility for your government's actions, regardless if you voted for them. Your responsibility as a citizen is to hold your government accountable, whether that's by voting, writing letters, talking, protesting, or (in the extreme case) civil disobedience or rebellion.

Unfortunately, the more important it is to hold your government to account, the harder it is. I, personally, don't have the strength to do that, for all I talk of it.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#329

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #301

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one calls the U.S a settler colonialist country What? The US is the ur-example of settler colonialism. We are the end stage, the model for the ultimate fate of the original inhabitants under colonialism: decimated and pushed back into whatever worthless land none of the settlers wanted. > or that the Indians get the right to their lands back People do demand that, yes. Personally, I would love to see Native Amer…

Ok what I mean is no one is seriously asking to decolonise the U.S. Its easy to want a few Indians get a few more acres. It sounds nice and costs you nothing. But what about settling real claims? Like some tribe wants Manhattan back? Or returning California to Mexico? Thats what Israel is asked to do. To basically destroy itself to fix some past wrong that wasn't really its fault to begin with (we don't have to start…

Like I said, I'm not asking for anyone to be kicked out of their homes. I'm asking them to stop kicking other people out of theirs.

There are people who want to do the former, and I disagree with them, on both sides. Stop using them as an excuse for Israel's ongoing abuses.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#330

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #316

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.

That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here. What the Russians do isn't a…

I can and do call out my own government. I can criticize other governments at the same time. I don't need to limit myself to caring about one issue.