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Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

bbc.com

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Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#321

Post by jointpdf »

burtonator wrote: post #6

Crows are amazingly intelligent animals. My GF and I went to the beach about a month ago and took our dog. The crows weren't frightened at ALL of our dog. They realized they could basically just 'float' up in the air when he came by using the breeze. The fact that they were amazingly calm about it was really telling. Second. We hid our stuff under a blanket. They realize it's still there as they have item persistence…

I wonder how kea (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kea) compared to crows in terms of intelligence. I’ve heard those things are more than capable of breaking into vehicles.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#322

Post by burtonator »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #159

Crows are known to give "presents" to humans they like, such as dropping small pieces of metal they picked up, or worms. Also, crows have very rich tribal behaviours going on. There's a town close to mine called Husum (in North Germany) where there's a multi-year battle going on between crows in the park. You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

> You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

We're not sure they're exactly mourning but crows have "funerals" ... it might also be that they're trying to ascertain why they died to avoid a potential threat.

... could be both too.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#323

Post by filoleg »

csomar wrote: post #205
mrtksn wrote: post #25

Previously I heard about crows in Japan leaving nuts on the way of the cars to crash them when traffic lights are red and collecting them the next cycle. This summer I witnessed the exact same thing when I was driving through a particularly jammy traffic light here in Europe. Are these crows inventing the method over and over again independently, like scientists finding the same thing at the same time in different pa…

I wonder if what makes humans "intelligent" is exactly this. Plus we have a 70-90 years of life. Which is long enough to learn and do stuff, compare that to 10-15 years for your average crow. We start bombarding babies with information since a very early age. Parents, are incentivized to teach their babies how to talk, walk, read, write, do stuff, eat, sing, etc... The amount of cognitive exercise is insane. And a hu…

Sounds like a good theory, until you think about animals like parrots and turtles. Both of those have lifespans that are about as long as that of humans, and no doubt they are very intelligent (esp. pronounced with parrots), but not smart enough to be able to support your hypothesis.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#324

Post by mulmen »

derefr wrote: post #288
MS90 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a story a while back about a kid that threw rocks at a tree full of crows one day when he was walking to the school bus. After that day, the crows decided that this child was the enemy. Many kids walked past the tree on the way to the school bus every day and the crows completely ignored them, but when little rock thrower walked by he'd literally get shit bombed by 20-30 crows all the way to the bu…

I wonder if anyone’s ever done an experiment on the social connectivity of crows, by first somehow pissing off an entire flock of crows; and then tagging a particular individual crow, and repeatedly being friendly to/appeasing that crow, and seeing how long the it takes for the message that you’re not such a jerk after all to spread among the rest of the crow population.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/uw-professor-learn...

In a word, yes.

> Marzluff and two students wore rubber masks. He designated a caveman mask as “dangerous” and, in a deliberate gesture of civic generosity, a Dick Cheney mask as “neutral.” Researchers in the dangerous mask then trapped and banded seven crows on the university’s campus in Seattle.

> In the months that followed, the researchers and volunteers donned the masks on campus, this time walking prescribed routes and not bothering crows.

> The crows had not forgotten. They scolded people in the dangerous mask significantly more than they did before they were trapped, even when the mask was disguised with a hat or worn upside down. The neutral mask provoked little reaction.

> The effect has not only persisted, but also multiplied over the past two years. Wearing the dangerous mask on one recent walk through campus, Marzluff said, he was scolded by 47 of the 53 crows he encountered, many more than had experienced or witnessed the initial trapping.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#325

Post by atombender »

elhudy wrote: post #244
eps wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats tend to bring gifts too. My grandmother used to receive that of dead moles, freshly caught mice and what have you, invariably placed dead center on her pillow. She wasn't a fan of that cat before, and she didn't like it much better after. No idea why.

Cats are responsible for killing up to 25 billion animals annually and have directly contributed to the extinction of at least 33 different species. Growing up our family cat brought us a constant stream of rabbits, birds, and moles. It is actually a problem that nobody talks about, because cats are cute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife

My girlfriend sewed a collar for her cat out of a colourful patterned fabric, and also added a fringe of metallic, very reflective material to it. The collar seems to help a lot — he's no longer able to catch any birds, which are apparently highly attuned to bright and reflective colours (though rats aren't a problem). Highly recommended.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#326

Post by boomboomsubban »

leadingthenet wrote: post #221
boomboomsubban wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How strongly is it coloring my views of what somebody else presumably from the same country said?

The fact that you presume him to also be American is another super American trait.

The person talked in depth about things happening in California. I can't be certain they are American, but I have ample reason to presume they are.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#327

Post by discreteevent »

dexen wrote: post #270
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

>What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. No; passing on knowledge isn't quite sufficient. The key difference is our ability to manipulate objects with hands, and our ability to harness external sources of energy, starting with fire. Cetaceans (in particular orcas and dolphins), chimps, crows, they all are known to develop & pass on language, culture, and knowledge like hunt…

I watched a documentary once that demonstrated how smart chimps are but the main point of it was to demonstrate how they do not pass on much to their offspring. Also it theorised that this is why humans didn't co-opt chimps. You can't communicate with them. A relatively dumb dog is better.

i/o is more important than calculation when it comes to getting things done.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#328

Post by [deleted] »

marcosdumay wrote: post #278
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

I don't think the expression "wild untrained human" even makes sense. There haven't been any wild untrained human ancestor since a long time before humans appeared. Also, most smart animals have persistent knowledge that they pass from one generation to the other. We are just smarter than those other animals. Tens of thousands of years ago, humans were already a force not to be messed with. Hell, a million years ago…

[deleted]

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#329

Post by at-fates-hands »

User23 wrote: post #43
duelingjello wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeap. Food and valuables have to be toddler-proofed around crows. They can also steal your wallet or your keys if you leave them unsecured. And, damn, they're as good as human thieves at reading situations for opportunism.

I saw a crow steal a credit card off an outdoor table in Seattle once. They really are remarkable animals. Also I swear they have regional accents to their calls.

> Also I swear they have regional accents to their calls.

Its actually true they do this. Two noted ornithologist's describes it in one of their books on crows:

As ornithologist John M. Marzluff and author Tony Angell noted in their 2005 book In the Company of Crows and Ravens, the calls these birds use "vary regionally, like human dialects that can vary from valley to valley." And there's more: If a crow changes its social group, the bird will try to fit in by talking like the popular guys. "When crows join a new flock," Marzluff and Angell wrote, "they learn the flock's dialect by mimicking the calls of dominant flock members."

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#330

Post by bshanks »

The article mentions that corvids don't have a "neocortex", which is true, however many believe that there is a part of avian brains which is their version of neocortex (see e.g. https://www.pnas.org/content/112/11/3184 ). So it's possible that the neural architecture of their intelligence is somewhat similar to ours after all.
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