Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 443 posts

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#261

Post by boatswain »

kldavis4 wrote: post #219
harimau777 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if you are out driving and there's a flock of Canadian Geese walking across the road, try only slowing down to 5 to 10 mph. They are used to people stopping until they finish crossing so they freak out when you don't. Note: I generally do not advocate purposely messing with animals, but geese are evil! Also don't do this if there are young that might not be able to get out of the way in time.

Canada Geese not Canadian :)

What if they are from Canada? Are they Canadian Canada Geese?

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#262

Post by n0rbwah »

wruza wrote: post #160
n0rbwah wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know we had any idea when speech started or even what form of proto-speech preceded and when it could be said it evolved to speech. Homo Erectus emerged 2 millions years ago, I'm not aware of anything that says speech couldn't have started during his reign. Do you have any source for that 100,000 years figure?

That’s a well known story. Speech beyond mooing means complex bones and muscles working together. https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/could-neandert...

All I take from this article is that there's no consensus among experts whether speech was possible for homo sapiens' ancestors.

> Based on these results, most researchers agree Neanderthals were capable of emitting and hearing complex vocalizations. However, they disagree over the implications. While some consider the findings indicative of speech-based language in Neanderthals, others propose these features could have evolved for other reasons, like singing. Neanderthals may have lacked the cognitive abilities for language, but possessed the physical anatomy for musical calls to attract mates or sooth infants.

Seems to imply that speech was physically possible for neanderthals (and by extension, their common ancestor with homo sapiens), but there's no agreement among experts that it means that neanderthals did speak.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#263

Post by boatswain »

jancsika wrote: post #247
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

> A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. That's such a misanthropic statement I don't even know where to begin. Just sticking to the kinds of structures a human and a crow can build in the wild, it's still obvious to the untrained observer that the human is well beyond the crow in terms of intelligence.

Look at the levels humans are when they haven't been taught by other humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#265

Post by samatman »

jancsika wrote: post #247
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

> A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. That's such a misanthropic statement I don't even know where to begin. Just sticking to the kinds of structures a human and a crow can build in the wild, it's still obvious to the untrained observer that the human is well beyond the crow in terms of intelligence.

It's not, although I believe I see why it was unclear.

An untrained 'wild' human doesn't develop the language facility. Absent that, there's little to distinguish us from another large apex predator.

There have been a few humans raised away from their own kind, not many, but enough to make this observation.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#266

Post by jliptzin »

MS90 wrote: post #251
IanSanders wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder what one can do to "prove themselves", perhaps let the cat witness them catch something? Sounds like a great research subject.

Bite a rat to death in front of the cat and consume it raw while maintaining unbroken eye contact.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/63/3f/72633fcf833f46966dbd...

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#267

Post by sb057 »

orthoxerox wrote: post #58
User23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a crow steal a credit card off an outdoor table in Seattle once. They really are remarkable animals. Also I swear they have regional accents to their calls.

I wonder if they know how to use ATMs

If this video is to be believed, they understand the concept of using a card at an ATM, but can't quite grasp exactly what to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWfVIjSdxTk

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#269

Post by linuxftw »

billly wrote: post #246
kldavis4 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada Geese not Canadian :)

Where are you from? I've never heard anyone say Canada Geese.

Nobody says Canada Geese unless you're on the internet. It's pretty much Canadian Geese.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#270

Post by dexen »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148
netcan wrote: post #111

It's fascinating that intelligence exists in different clades & phylum of animals: crows, octopus, apes etc. It suggests intelligence is not very progressive, in evolution. It advances & recedes, and evolution can find multiple paths to it from various starting point. It doesn't take a mammalian brain. Who know what other animal intelligence exists today, or in the past. The current crop of species (us excepted) may…

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

>What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication.

No; passing on knowledge isn't quite sufficient. The key difference is our ability to manipulate objects with hands, and our ability to harness external sources of energy, starting with fire.

Cetaceans (in particular orcas and dolphins), chimps, crows, they all are known to develop & pass on language, culture, and knowledge like hunting tricks. Cetaceans, and also octopuses have relatively high intelligence. The former live in long-running packs (pods), and pass on their distinct cultures, language dialects, and hunting habits. The later live with little to no contact with their parents, and have to discover everything from grounds up. Both have been around for much longer than humans. Neither have progressed anywhere near close to having a technological civilization, and are on relatively similar level.

Post reply on HN