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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#311

Post by locusm »

linsomniac wrote: post #190
atrus wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

Maybe you were an Intel user and couldn't be bothered upgrading to a new motherboard every CPU release?

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#312

Post by MBCook »

benoau wrote: post #114
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

They don't make the CPU or the hardware. And M1 laptops are what about three years from the vintage list? They'll be e-waste at the end of this decade even while other laptops fail to match it.

But that’s not really the point is it.

If PC vendors can’t match some important specs from multiple years ago on an Apple laptop, isn’t that kind of a problem?

Sure you can get a faster laptop than an M1. But can you get one that’s faster and silent at all times?

You can get a bigger battery. Or screen or whatever. But all those trade off some other desirable quality.

Has anyone matched the full package? Speed + size + weight + battery life + noise + specs?

Shouldn’t framework be able to match that, especially if you’re willing to give some on the weight or cost? If not, why?

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#313

Post by locusm »

kelnos wrote: post #237
nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I guess Framework is maybe too new for us to be able to come up with figures here, but monetary value is hard to measure for a product where the intention is you don't ever fully replace it. Sure, I might have spent a few hundred more on my Framework 13 back in 2022, but if I'd bought a Dell XPS 13 instead, I probably would be fully replacing it with a new machine in 2026 or 2027. But with the Framework, I'll instead…

Exactly my thinking too with my FW16.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#314

Post by hokumguru »

bradfa wrote: post #221
hokumguru wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL. How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard. What about when framework comes out with upgrades down…

Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad parts are pretty easy to come by on eBay. I’ve bought a handful of different parts from drive caddies, OEM batteries, hinge assemblies, keyboards, and trackpads without much drama. Dell Latitude service manuals are top notch with detailed procedures and diagrams. Dell has a decent track record of maintaining their firmware for a reasonable number of years after release.

eBay is not first party support. And it’s certainly not first party support 5 years later like Framework still offers for the Laptop 13.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#315

Post by AgentElement »

nrp wrote: post #48
weird_trousers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but this is not a real value for certain people.

We saw that there was a gap in the market for laptops that treat Linux as a first-class OS target, and we design our products with that audience in mind. That there are other people in the world who don't need Linux is totally ok.

First-class Linux support is the reason that half the regulars in my local Linux Users Group have Frameworks. It's probably the most common laptop brand I see in my tech circle, and anecdotally I can say that it has eclipsed thinkpads in my specific community.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#316

Post by wpm »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #224
chickensong wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first run of Frameworks had a weak hinge on the monitor, which isn't an uncommon problem with other brands of laptop. With Framework, you can easily replace the hinge, but that's unlikely with most other brands, and you'll need to pay to replace the entire monitor. Another example, I didn't need an HDMI port anymore, and wanted an extra USB-C instead. Just a few bucks to swap with Framework, but impossible with o…

It seems that the swappable modules would also make it easy for someone to install e.g. a keylogger, though.

If they are close enough to do that without me noticing I already have a ton of problems to fix instead of worrying about my Framework's module security.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#317

Post by kiwijamo »

mmcnl wrote: post #186
nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.

Even that is slowly dying out. Lenovo sells many expensive business grade laptops with soldered on RAM for example.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#318

Post by wpm »

I wish Framework made a small laptop with inverted-T arrow keys. I *hated* the full height left and right keys on my old touchbar MacBook Pro, and rejoiced when they wisely fixed that mistake.

I don't need to go to a 16, the only laptop they sell with the proper arrow key arrangement. I need something small and cheerful as a secondary Linux laptop, and ugh, the 12 and the 13 come so so close, only to trip right before the finish line.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#319

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

broodbucket wrote: post #286
0000000000100 wrote: post #202

Our company bought about 4-5 Framework 13s, and boy were they a bad experience. All sorts of driver issues, random crashes, USB ports not working right, etc. Just about all of them had some kind of issue, which is really fun when your PM has a USB port not work randomly. Ended up going back to HP laptops, 30% cheaper for the same specs and they just work consistently. Would love to hear a hobbyist perspective, Framew…

The replaceable parts definitely add value as someone who's had one for 4 years now or something like that. It's probably got more new parts than old, some for performance improvements, others for damage because I'm not especially gentle. I don't really think it's tremendous value if you're purely talking about laptop per dollar. I probably could've bought two similarly performant laptops for the amount I've spent on…

Thing is, the major part the motherboard will cost you the price of a competitive laptop.

I want to love framework, but their prices just don’t justify the switch for most people.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#320

Post by eddythompson80 »

leptons wrote: post #179
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

The Apple M-series laptops get a performance boost by putting the RAM inside the CPU, which makes it completely impossible to upgrade RAM. That is the antithesis of what Framework is doing. Apple are the kings of disposable hardware that costs way more than the competition for no good reason. You want 32GB? You're going to pay a lot for it . Oh, now you need 64GB? Too bad, throw out that old laptop and get a new one.

There is a lot you can fault Apple for, but we're literally talking about a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition. People often argue "how much is Apple ahead of the competition" if at all, right? Guessing you're in the "not at all, it's all PR bullshit" camp, which is fine.

This is the one undisputed example though where we can put a definitive number on it. So far Apple is 4 years ahead of their competition on this very particular metric (High performance, low energy, fanless CPU)

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