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DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

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Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#311

Post by tptacek »

busterarm wrote: post #309
tptacek wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to say to someone who thinks the Black Hat talk schedule and lobby conference isn't a reason to go, but a $5000 training course on "Active Directory Security Fundamentals" is. You do you, I guess. I don't care if you go or not. I'm not trying to sell anybody on Black Hat. If you work in this field, you know what Black Hat is, and if you care about Security Summer Camp you're in the lobby bar at Mand…

Fair enough. BH as vendor event wasn't my axe to grind but the parent poster's. I was just complaining about the industry and the event in general as only having status-economy value. e.g., the only reason I would go is if I needed to for industry certifications. Talks aren't a reason for me to go to anything (they'll be streamed eventually and I can filter them better). I'll agree the talks are better here than most…

Again: I'm not trying to sell you on Black Hat. But re:Invent is nothing at all like Black Hat. Black Hat is a peer-reviewed research conference focusing on presentation of security research results. You pay to see Black Hat talks if breaking the encryption on police TETRA radio or defeating Apple's PAC pointer authentication is professionally useful to you. For most Black Hat talks, that stage will be the first public airing of that research. At events like re:Invent, the new stuff is just product announcements.

I can see not wanting to sit through a bunch of vulnerability research talks! Defcon is certainly the more "fun" event.

There are higher-status (non-academic) research conferences, but they're not mainstream. Of the events everybody knows about and that employers at pentest firms will pay to have people develop talks for and employers at F500 security teams will pay to have engineers attend, Black Hat is basically the most important event of the year.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#312

Post by snarfy »

mrandish wrote: post #4

I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared to the avg Vegas conference attendee. They also probably spend less on high-end restaurant dining and bar drinking inside the hotel. Since the pandemic Vegas has had a pretty strong resurgence in general and this may be a sign that Caesar's is doing well enou…

I attended an earlier DEF CON (5 or 6?) where the attendees:

    1) Hacked the in-circuit TV system and broadcast their own pirate show
    2) Gained roof access and removed the satellite dish 
    3) Spilled hookah coals onto the bed starting a fire
    4) drove the janitor's golf cart into the pool
and that is only what I witnessed firsthand. I can only imagine what else went on. Maybe the attendees low spend was only part of the equation?

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#313

Post by rpmisms »

mynameisnoone wrote: post #121
rpmisms wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, programmers like poker, but not games of chance. This also describes me. Poker is a data-heavy game of skill and memory, Craps is about the opposite.

I went with a bunch of CS/bioinformatics/MD IITians to Reno, NV once. They were just there to gamble on games of chance. Personally, I think gambling is boring and stupid if the expectation isn't significantly positive. I'd gamble if skill was the dominating factor and the expectation wasn't so abysmal.

You would like Poker. I mostly play with friends for chips, but it still takes concentration and memory. Excellent game.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#314

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #209
johnnyanmac wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Not to be TOO snarky, but given how quickly corporate cancels employee labor despite rising revenue, it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers". Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternat…

> it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers" At least going by all the entrepreneurship articles I've read over the decade, "firing your customers" is a term of art, and a recommended approach for dealing with unprofitable and/or annoying customers - so I guess this shouldn't be surprising. > Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a…

[deleted]

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#315

Post by Enginerrrd »

somenameforme wrote: post #153
zmgsabst wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to misunderstand the 75% rate: The requirement is that the expected value for a play on a machine is >75%. And most are >90%. But that’s not a cap on profit margin, as 25% of the expense for a play may be more than the cost of that play. Eg, having a machine that costs $1 with $0.75 expected return (and $0.25 revenue for the casino) may only cost the casino $0.10 a play — which would be a 60% profit margin.

Expected return on a machine and profit margin on that machine are literally identical. Imagine there's a hypothetical $1 machine where we simply remove variance. So you insert $1 and you get $0.75 back. It should be clear that for each $1 of revenue, the casino profits $0.25. This is a 25% profit margin. Variance can add some noise, but does not change the long-term expectation, which is what the regulations are bas…

Except that you have expenses, like rent for the machine, maintenance for the machine and building, energy costs, staff salaries, cleaning costs, security and IT spend, etc. etc.

So no, profit is more like gross revenue minus expenses and taxes.

You could easily have a machine with positive EV for the house that has negative profit.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#316

Post by bawolff »

Sebb767 wrote: post #289
nimos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they would cancel a contract already in place for that reason. Not renew the contract - sure. But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing".

> Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing". The announcement effectively calls it "no-notice cancellation" and overall it reads like they were already deep in the planning phase when it happened, which seems unlikely if a renewal was pending.

Its odd though - i would assume a conference of this size would have penalties in the contract if the venue decides to pull out without cause or sufficient notice.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#317

Post by NegativeK »

snarfy wrote: post #312
mrandish wrote: post #4

I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared to the avg Vegas conference attendee. They also probably spend less on high-end restaurant dining and bar drinking inside the hotel. Since the pandemic Vegas has had a pretty strong resurgence in general and this may be a sign that Caesar's is doing well enou…

I attended an earlier DEF CON (5 or 6?) where the attendees: 1) Hacked the in-circuit TV system and broadcast their own pirate show 2) Gained roof access and removed the satellite dish 3) Spilled hookah coals onto the bed starting a fire 4) drove the janitor's golf cart into the pool and that is only what I witnessed firsthand. I can only imagine what else went on. Maybe the attendees low spend was only part of the e…

There are still shenanigans, but all of the wildness has calmed down -- both via goon enforcement and casino staff knowledge.

For example, the ATMs on casino floors are probably some of the most secure in the nation during the con. Harassment is also taken actually seriously.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#318

Post by throwaway2037 »

well_actulily wrote: post #194
throwaway2037 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand, in Las Vegas, as long as you do not use a device to aid with card counting (mind/mental only), it is legal. Is that still true?

Sure, it's "legal"—but so is them banning you from playing blackjack or tresspassing you from their property.

Great point. Thank you to clarify. Casinos in Las Vegas are private. They have the right to ask anyone to leave for any reason.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#319

Post by nebula8804 »

technick wrote: post #196
nimos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they would cancel a contract already in place for that reason. Not renew the contract - sure. But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing".

I will need to dig up the archives from DC 27 when the deal with Caesars forum was officially announced, but if memory serves me correctly DT said it was a 5 or 10 year contract. So unless there was some verbaige in the contract that allows Caesars to cancel for any reason, they're going to be cutting DEFCON a check.

There was some announcement at the closing talks last year of the same venue being booked for the next 2-3 cons I think.

Re: DEF CON 32 Was Canceled. We Un-Canceled it

#320

Post by _cenw »

wodenokoto wrote: post #215
_cenw wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That settles it, DEF CON in Dubai, London or Amsterdam. I vote for Amsterdam. Frankfurt also has the most international destinations (just not volume). (Probably not Dubai, considering a few speakers would be thrown out at the border - or worse if they get though. It's also artificially inflated because it's almost all transit traffic). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_airports_by_in...

> It's also artificially inflated because it's almost all transit traffic Dubai is a center for large conferences and Expos. The row of High rise hotels along Sheik Zayed Road across from Dubai World Trade Center (the largest exhibition hall in Dubai) is astounding. Gitex, Gulfood and Arab Health are all conference that are largest in their class world wide. And while A lot of DXBs traffic is transfers, the city does…

> There’s a lot to criticize Dubai for

Terrible location for any conference that cares about everyone being able to attend. While one could argue about "hiding the gay" (I'd still say that's hard to impossible), I would never be able to attend as visibly trans.

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