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NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

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Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#311

Post by bradleyjg »

colinmhayes wrote: post #279
bradleyjg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell me the salary range is $200-300k and you offer me $400k I’m not going to be upset. If you offer me $125k, I will be. If I knew up front you had three roles, one paying $75-$125k, one $200-300k, and one $400-500k I could judge for myself what the chances were of the one I’m interested in (or higher). If you refuse to make ranges or publish $75k-$500k I have no idea if we are wasting each other’s time. It’s…

Adding a different listing for every job instead of role just means applicants can’t find the listing that fits them. So we end up with “senior” listings that are looking to hire engineers for 100k but would be willing to pay 300 for the perfect fit. Adding putting a range of 100-300 probably just pisses people off, especially since almost all of the offers are going to be in the 100 area since most employees are nec…

I’m not sure if you meant to disagree with me, but I’m perfectly okay with having three roles each with a salary range, job description, and required experience / skills. That allows the applicant to know what bar he needs to hit to get the salary he’s interested in.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#312

Post by alistairSH »

jameshart wrote: post #267
jjav wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies absolutely have fixed hiring budgets and salary guidelines. Yes, they hay budgets and salary guidelines. All of that is negotiable as a hiring manager. Just a matter of how many levels up the chain you need to go to get the approval and whether you (hiring manager) can convince them, which depends on how strong the candidate is.

If someone told you you are a ‘hiring manager’ but you don’t have responsibility for the budget that hire comes out of, they are lying to you to make you feel important . Hiring requires money. If you have to go ask someone else for that money, they are the one doing the hiring.

The just a wee bit pedantic. In my position, I control my employees' salaries (within guidelines). But, if I want to add headcount I need to make my case to my VP or higher. I suppose I could fire 5 seniors developers and hire 10 junior developers with the freed up budget, but I definitely cannot conjure up the $200k+ required to hire an additional employee without approval from my boss or his boss.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#313

Post by Carrok »

drewpc wrote: post #30
Carrok wrote: post #7

It has been this way in Colorado for some time, and it has been nothing but fantastic.

Can you please expand on this a bit more? I live in Colorado and saw virtually no change when looking for a new job inside and outside of the state last year. I did run across a few "no job applications from CO" as was mentioned in other comment threads, but most job postings I saw did not post salary information.

When you are working for a company in CO, they are required to post all new job postings both internally and externally, with salary info.

So you can see what new people coming in are getting for what roles, and know if you're in the right range.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#314

Post by JAlexoid »

colinmhayes wrote: post #279
bradleyjg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell me the salary range is $200-300k and you offer me $400k I’m not going to be upset. If you offer me $125k, I will be. If I knew up front you had three roles, one paying $75-$125k, one $200-300k, and one $400-500k I could judge for myself what the chances were of the one I’m interested in (or higher). If you refuse to make ranges or publish $75k-$500k I have no idea if we are wasting each other’s time. It’s…

Adding a different listing for every job instead of role just means applicants can’t find the listing that fits them. So we end up with “senior” listings that are looking to hire engineers for 100k but would be willing to pay 300 for the perfect fit. Adding putting a range of 100-300 probably just pisses people off, especially since almost all of the offers are going to be in the 100 area since most employees are nec…

"perfect fit" because interviews are crap at identifying perfect fit.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#315

Post by JAlexoid »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #127
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Over the 2+ decades I've been working in this industry, the list of things that are expected out of an interview process just keeps growing. Intense panel interviews, coding on whiteboards, "show me your github", "do this example project", etc. Tell me your life story. What makes you passionate? They often drag on for weeks, sometimes months, before an actual offer letter is in hand. And at the same time we're told t…

And in the end there's still an "at will employment" and "3 month probation period".

Why TF would you waste so much time to then have all of that crap?

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#316

Post by JAlexoid »

andrewstuart wrote: post #74
zerr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your client tells you secretly that the base salary range for the position is 200K-250K. And the prospective employee tells that s/he wants 150K. Would you disclose that s/he can ask up to 250K or would you rather make your client happy by getting them a bargain?

>> would you rather make your client happy by getting them a bargain Recruiters are usually paid based on a percentage of the salary. It's actually in the interests of the recruiter that you are paid as much as possible, strictly speaking. In reality, my goals as recruiter are: * happy client * find a new employee who the employer is super happy with six months down the track * find a new employee who wants and enjoy…

And yet, I've been screwed over by recruiters many times.

Simply because recruiting is a very low barrier job - you get countless bad recruiters... even at reputable recruitment agencies - horrible child-recruiters.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#317

Post by llbeansandrice »

thunky wrote: post #287
llbeansandrice wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A relatively unknown company that isn't posting salary info is kind of a red flag I feel like I'm living in an alternate reality than others in this thread. Even in tech I've had to put in a ton of legwork to find salary estimates for jobs and often the data was very incomplete. Combine the weirdness with roles/titles that companies can have, how do you search for salary info for "assistant to the guru of front-end…

I'm not saying it's the norm to post salary, and I'm not defending companies that don't. But some companies do, and some job seekers won't apply unless they do. In the September HN who's hiring thread, two of the first four posts include salary info. Remote, and NYC. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32677265

So at-best 50% in a small pool that's already selection-biased 18 ways to Sunday? These laws apply to _all_ job postings. The benefits are, I admit, smaller for experienced tech workers for a myriad of reasons, but the societal/worker benefit across the entire population is huge.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#318

Post by deltree7 »

joshuamorton wrote: post #281
deltree7 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily make a claim that Google is a $1.4T firm vs may be a $40 Billion Twitter-like also ran if it weren't for this https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/10/the-friendship...

Yes you can easily make a lot of claims. But I don't think they stack up, hence my request to "prove" it. Also, of course, if you compare me (L5 Swe) and Jeff (L11 senior Google fellow/SVP) or Sanjay, you'll find that the roles we are hired into have vastly different compensation ranges. So even presuming this is true, it actually goes against your overall point that wide ranges for a single posting are justified. I'…

Jeff / Sanjay weren't L11 when they transformed Google. Also that's precisely my point.

Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch.

SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework.

But most SWE are entitled and out-of-touch that they demand and act as though they are Jeff or Andy Rubin or Levandowski

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#319

Post by thunky »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #317
thunky wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's the norm to post salary, and I'm not defending companies that don't. But some companies do, and some job seekers won't apply unless they do. In the September HN who's hiring thread, two of the first four posts include salary info. Remote, and NYC. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32677265

So at-best 50% in a small pool that's already selection-biased 18 ways to Sunday? These laws apply to _all_ job postings. The benefits are, I admit, smaller for experienced tech workers for a myriad of reasons, but the societal/worker benefit across the entire population is huge.

> the societal/worker benefit across the entire population is huge

I didn't disagree with your main assertion, only with your use of absolutes. You said:

"So all job postings before these laws have been put into effect?"

and:

"I've _never_ seen a company offer salary information (numbers) in the job listing unless it was explicitly required by law"

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#320

Post by spopejoy »

chrisdbanks wrote: post #94

As an employer, I am reticent to name a salary range because the fact is that the return on investment of employees is not normally distributed; it follows a power law where the top people return many times the amount of an average person. This may be because of connections, experience, intelligence, or a mixture. When I recruit I always want to hire a top person for whom I'm happy to pay 50% more than an average per…

Even if your argument is sound, as an employer, it is in your rational self-interest to oppose this regulation for all the _other_ unfair advantages it gives you. Thus your argument is already suspect because apparently, you're at a minimum non-committal about the unfair parts and want to hold on to this presumably more fair advantage, as well.

However, even the case you mention is unfair too. You're basically preserving your negotiation advantage to give you cheaper access to higher-performing talent.

Indeed, the very argument you make for candidates -- "just tell me your expectations" -- can be turned upon you -- "well, just tell me what you'd pay a top performer", and surprise, you don't want to, because it lessens your advantage.

This is exactly why this regulation exists -- no employer can justify the asymmetry in a candidate-positive way that holds water, so the government has to step in to correct the power imbalance.

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