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NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

nytimes.com

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Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#131

Post by jameshart »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Companies absolutely have fixed hiring budgets and salary guidelines. It's not that surprising to me, though, that if they don't have to share that with an external recruiter they will choose not to. You're probably on a percentage of the final hiring salary, so why would they tell you the max salary they're willing to offer? Your interests are not aligned.

The way it works in most companies that are big enough to have, like, distinct departments for HR and finance, is that teams have staffing budgets that are set out quarterly or annually, and if the team is expanding they will set those numbers to be big enough to cover the cost of the additional headcount they plan to add. Then the HR organization will probably have a compensation policy, which sets out ranges of rates for particular roles by level and geography. So your budget for a role lines up to certain job levels you can afford to hire at.

So by the time you're writing a job description looking for '5 years of react experience, located in NY' or whatever, you're pretty much narrowed in on a salary range that depends on 1) what your HR compensation guide says is the minimum compensation you pay for a level N software developer in that geo, and 2) the absolute maximum of your staffing budget allocated to the role.

If you can't turn that into a salary range for job advertising purposes, you're not a serious business.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#132

Post by coryrc »

willio58 wrote: post #18
diceduckmonk wrote: post #3

For finance and tech jobs the compensation will be tied up in performance bonuses and equity, so salary ranges aren't the most meaningful for these roles, except when there is no non-salary pay.

For tech jobs I'd wager the vast majority operate on a simple salary plus retirement set up. HN is definitely in a bubble where seemingly everyone works at the top tech companies and gets like 175k base + 90k in bonuses and equity.

I don't think most of us working in top tech companies are making that little.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#133

Post by Spooky23 »

orev wrote: post #64
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

I think many here will disagree, but this is spot on. Having a fixed salary range also implies there’s a fixed/well-defined set of tasks for that role, which is only applicable to typical lower-level jobs that do repetitive tasks. Once you get into higher skilled positions, the roles become much more flexible and negotiable. The HN crowd is exactly the opposite type of people who would benefit from this. Job definiti…

Depends. 95% of candidates fit into a salary band. If you didn’t do that, the company would get ripped to shreds by lawsuits about pay equity.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#134

Post by heavyset_go »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

> If it makes you mad that job ads do not list salary, then there are good reasons and you will just have to get over or it not apply for that job.

If it makes recruiters and employers mad that they have to include salary ranges in their job listings, that's just too bad, and they will just have to get over it and follow the law.

Thankfully legislators are cracking down on this type of entitlement that's coming from recruiters and employers alike.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#135

Post by joshuamorton »

jstx1 wrote: post #8
spamizbad wrote: post #2

I get why employers would hate this, but overall, wouldn't greater transparency in the labor market drive economic growth by virtue of making the labor market more efficient by doing a better job of connecting skilled, hard-working and motivated employees with employers who can pay more?

By what mechanism does legally enforced transparency make the labor market more efficient?

Transparency is literally one of the requirements for a theoretical efficient market. If buyers (companies) have asymmetrical information with sellers (laborers) there is room for inefficiency. Remove that and the market becomes more efficient.

This efficiency is seen as higher wages and lower profits, as we see with the skyrocketing in executive compensation after it was legally mandated to be public.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#136

Post by heavyset_go »

CSMastermind wrote: post #91
llbeansandrice wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. As an employee, sounds like not my fuckin problem. I'm not about to go through 3 phone screens, a take-home test, a full-day onsite, etc. just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied. > I think it will be about $X Oh! So looks like it's not that hard to ball-park a number off the top of your head. I don't get this "how the world really w…

Why not legislate the other way around? Make it the law that you post how much you're willing to work for on your LinkedIn profile and that you have to supply it to employers at the start of an application process so neither side is wasting time. Seems like that would address all your complaints just as well.

This just tilts the scale of information asymmetry even more in the direction of employers than it already is.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#137

Post by welshwelsh »

orev wrote: post #64
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

I think many here will disagree, but this is spot on. Having a fixed salary range also implies there’s a fixed/well-defined set of tasks for that role, which is only applicable to typical lower-level jobs that do repetitive tasks. Once you get into higher skilled positions, the roles become much more flexible and negotiable. The HN crowd is exactly the opposite type of people who would benefit from this. Job definiti…

The important part is that employers post the maximum salary so that job seekers know what the budget is.

Employers should make a separate job ad for each pay grade, and they should provide a detailed explanation of how they determine salary. If the range is $150k to $250k, what are the criteria to make $250k? What's the difference between someone who makes $150k and $175k? That information belongs in the job posting.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#138

Post by sidlls »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team.

With few exceptions, what you wrote is not accurate. Most companies have salary bands for every position based on level within the band. Companies know both the position and level they have in mind for a candidate before the first on-site interview, and often before the initial screen. The interviews reveal what the leveling should be, and sometimes indicate a different role is more appropriate. The vast majority of companies will not negotiate outside those relatively tight bands for most IC and other low level (management) roles.

So having a target salary in mind is fine for an assessment of an offer, but not all that helpful if the goal is to not waste time up front. Some exceptional candidates might successfully negotiate for a bump in in-band level or even position, but it’s rare.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#139

Post by jameshart »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114
jedberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one.

Those are going to be two vastly different numbers. Which one are you looking to pay for? If you have budget for a superstar, why would you settle for just-over-the-bar talent?

I kind of find myself suspecting that what you're really hoping for is that you'll find someone who has superstar talent, but doesn't know their market rate, so you can hire them at just-over-the-bar money.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#140

Post by bradleyjg »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114
jedberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

If you tell me the salary range is $200-300k and you offer me $400k I’m not going to be upset. If you offer me $125k, I will be. If I knew up front you had three roles, one paying $75-$125k, one $200-300k, and one $400-500k I could judge for myself what the chances were of the one I’m interested in (or higher). If you refuse to make ranges or publish $75k-$500k I have no idea if we are wasting each other’s time. It’s used car sales tactics.
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