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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#311

Post by Qem »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #92
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

Postdocs in Europe are pretty comfortable and labs often have more stable/core funding. Work can be pretty good postdocing in some labs in Europe. But the end of the road is still that after the postdoc you’re expected to either be a rockstar or a nobody. So anxiety is always there.

I think the core problem is lack of a intermediate default path, besides rockstar or nobody. In some places being a high school teacher was a reasonable, and even quite prestigious intermediate path. Some researchers even did significant contributions to science while in such roles, like Hermann Grassmann. But today being a teacher is a ugly duckling between professions that require higher education, overworked and with worse pay nearly everywhere. In some places they even have to worry about shootouts at work.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#312

Post by bglazer »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #104

Sorry to sound elitist, but no reasonable phd graduate that wants to pursue academia would ever want to do their PhD at Clemson university. Only possible exception would be that PI has done Nobel prize level work or the candidate has personal reasons to be in South Carolina. For perspective postdocs, it’s not about money, job security, or job environment . It’s first and foremost potential to be a leader in their fie…

You’re not the elitist, unfortunately you’re stating the truth and its academic hiring committees that are elitist.

Research backs up the idea that there is a small clique of “elite” universities that exclusively hire from each other. Also, the only direction of mobility is downwards, it’s rare to get hired at a more prestigious university than your postdoc institution.

https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.1400005

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#313

Post by sasaf5 »

travisporter wrote: post #229
gautamdivgi wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an industry person who wanted to transition to academia. I just decided against it obviously. I liked all the aspects you pointed out above. The one thing that is missed is that most places are publishing sweatshops where the pay and work conditions are horrible. The “boss” or the PI has unlimited control and can destroy your career. The problems are also way out of the ordinary. I’d like to draw a parallel wit…

Is the whole patent clerk discovering stuff in their free time still possible? I know people say do what you love etc but I’ve found something I kinda like as a day job but I’d rather be doing astronomy.

Particularly in the case of astronomy, citizen science is important. It probably won't give you an Annus Mirabilis, but might be satisfying.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#314

Post by wolverine876 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #279
wolverine876 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just decided against it obviously. Why is it obvious? There might be some groupthink on HN (and bias toward our career paths), but plenty of people go into academia. > pay and work conditions are horrible It's not like bosses and businesses in the private sector are Nirvana. You can see plenty of stories about them on HN.

Private sector pay is much better and working conditions are also on average much better. You have professional management and HR functions and one manager can’t destroy your career. More importantly the exit options are better. The relative power imbalances lead to people being treated differently.

Those are advantages, there also are disadvantages. That doesn't explain why it's obvious (nor address the HN bias/groupthink).

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#315

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #297
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

Who needs a PhD for a "junior python developer role". Is it really necessary. This "python developer" idea sounds like it only applies to a small slice of PhD programs, notably the ones focused solely on computers. For example, what percentage of PhDs in molecular biology choose to become "junior python developer". When someone who believes a computer performing pattern recognition equates to a child having feelings…

Computer Science PhD candidate quits to join Google.

https://computing.louisiana.edu/meet-blake-lemoine-computer-...

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#316

Post by barry-cotter »

wolverine876 wrote: post #314
barry-cotter wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private sector pay is much better and working conditions are also on average much better. You have professional management and HR functions and one manager can’t destroy your career. More importantly the exit options are better. The relative power imbalances lead to people being treated differently.

Those are advantages, there also are disadvantages. That doesn't explain why it's obvious (nor address the HN bias/groupthink).

I was responding purely to your point about working conditions. Obviously if you come from money, have a partner who does, come from a country that’s substantially poorer than most of the first world or want to do science more than you want to have a non long distance relationship or make a professional class income doing a PhD/postdoc looks great.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#317

Post by throwawayarnty »

balanoceous wrote: post #148

I am a post-doc in one of the ivory towers. I've been in the system a long time (technician, MD, PhD, residency, fellowship, now post doc). Jeez! I am a computational immunologist who studies cancer immunotherapy, if it matters. I am not independently wealthy or blah blah. I am a normal everyday person. I agree academia is nonsensical for the many reasons that are frequently discussed in HN. Mine is not a perspective…

I think the main issues with postdoc even if it’s enjoyable is that there is an expiry date to how long one can postdoc.

Even if you enjoy postdoc, some places won’t let you stay for more than 4 or 5 years.

If permanent postdoc positions existed, I am sure many people would view it favourably, especially if the lab is a good environment.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#318

Post by bjourne »

overeater wrote: post #305
bjourne wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The dearth of Americans is even more pronounced in hot STEM fields like computer science, which serve as talent pipelines for the likes of Google, Amazon, Facebook and Microsoft: About 64 percent of doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master’s programs last year were international students, according to an annual survey of American and Canadian universities by the Computing Research Association. In comparis…

> Note that the definition of "international student" excludes those with permanent visas. The number of foreign born PhD students is therefore significantly higher than 64%. Don't know if there are any stats for citizen/non-citizen share of PhDs though. Why are you interested in the percentage of foreign born PhD students? You realize that a lot of Americans are "foreign born". It seems like an archaic way of thinki…

Because the statement that was challenged was "I think Western academia is mostly reliant on immigration" and almost all people not born in the US but living in the US are immigrants.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#319

Post by nathias »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #297
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

Who needs a PhD for a "junior python developer role". Is it really necessary. This "python developer" idea sounds like it only applies to a small slice of PhD programs, notably the ones focused solely on computers. For example, what percentage of PhDs in molecular biology choose to become "junior python developer". When someone who believes a computer performing pattern recognition equates to a child having feelings…

nobody needs it, but if you have it learning to code is a viable alternative to academia

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#320

Post by plaguepilled »

adam_arthur wrote: post #145
plaguepilled wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, but consumer polling proves the point though? People are miserable BECAUSE their dollar buys less. The benefactors of such a policy are those with diversified assets. Wages should increase in response, not decrease. Inflation hits different sectors differently, and I'm OK with a PS5 inflating 300% if it means that a person on a minimum wage can have food security.

Advocating for higher wages to fight inflation is non-sensical. It just exacerbates inflation and requires even further wage gains to keep even. There is a wealth of economic history that shows this. The stimulus checks and co were the primary driver of inflation. Handing people more money is not the answer

I disagree, and I'm afraid you've made a slight error in categorisation there.

You are referred to the PPP loans that the US gov delivered to businesses. I agree that these contribute to inflation, but note: these loans went to businesses to secure the individuals paycheques, not individuals directly, and indeed the wages were not affected. Thus, we have inflation as you describe, and the claim that increasing wages could help in an economic downfall is safe, for now.

However, the PPP is not what I am advocating for, and most people serious about the topic agree there were far more efficient stimulus models that the Biden gov could have explored. If you somehow got the impression I am advocating for the PPP, my apologies.

For an example of what I do advocate, I refer you to the stimulus packages provided by the Australian government during the GFC. There were two significant differences to the US govs and Australia's stimuli: for one, the Australian stimulus was delivered to individuals (increasing purchasing power of the individuals and stimulating further purchases) and secondly, it was done as a single lump sum early on in the crisis, and was done to promote spending rather than to replace income.

This allowed Australia to then leave the GFC with relatively little damage (it can be shown that Australian debt soared afterwards, though it is widely agreed that the cause of that debt was the successor governments misspending rather than the GFC debt).

To summarise, I reject your assertion that higher wages exacerbates inflation. If you have the 'wealth of economic history' to support your claim, please feel free to specify.

(Side note: SBA.gov states that this was actually a Trump administration bill, not a 'progressive' bill, but that is irrelevant for the broader point I am making)

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