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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#311

Post by karmasimida »

tablespoon wrote: post #301
karmasimida wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump tried to raise 25% tariffs on all Chinese goods, and that is about the most effective way to implement the boycott with scale that can't be matched. And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs?

> And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs? Trump had the kernel of the right idea, but the actual goal in his mind was stupid (get a better "deal") and his execution sloppy and haphazard. A better implementation would be to ratchet up tariffs slowly, and send the certain message: "policy has changed, go all in towards adjusting your…

And now the tariffs tool is gone for good.

There is little room to raise the tariff again without hurting US itself.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#312

Post by wolverine876 »

dumb1224 wrote: post #309
hkmaxpro wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define “dubious” and “crossing a redline” (so that they need to be shut) according to HK laws? Without a precise definition we cannot have a fruitful discussion.

It is quite obvious they belong to a more sensationalism type of tabloid media. I refer them as 'dubious' due to this credibility issue. I may be wrong but there are definitely evidence of misinformation https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-... Sure in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest). But once it gets a lot of attention and an influ…

> in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest)

If you mean that in a democracy, publications need "at least some alignment with party interest", that's certainly not the case. However, given the multitude of political interests, the publication is bound to align somewhat with someone.

(Also, I disagree with the term "western democracy": Taiwan is Chinese and has a thriving democracy, as did Hong Kong until recently, plus there's Japan, S. Korea, Indonesia, India, Chile, Benin, etc etc. Democracy hasn't been 'western' for generations.)

However, I wonder a bit if this thread is becoming overly critical. I am aware that in any dictatorship, they allow some outlets - as long as they don't grow too powerful, as you say.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#313

Post by wolverine876 »

dumb1224 wrote: post #310
wolverine876 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. Unless you are drawing an equivalency between the CCP censored and created information on one hand, and the New York Times and Jonathan Spence on the other, I don't see what the point is. 'No information is perfect'? A similar claim is, 'no composer writes flawle…

Sorry again, I meant 'no one knows all the correct information'. I don't understand why you are so fond of comparison. Fine, I'll attempt one. What you read on New York Times about China could be high recall but low precision; and what I read from chinese sources (not necessarily press) may be high precision but low recall (not sure if I got it right...laugh).

We're kinda going in circles. 'no one knows all the correct information' isn't more meaningful than any other statement about perfection. Some people have far better information than others. Some people believe the earth is flat, others know astrophysics, neither has perfect information but that statement tells us nothing about the information they do have.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#314

Post by dumb1224 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #305
dumb1224 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite an elevated take of my comment. I never implied they are 'sin' or telling people what to think (it would be a compliment as I'm usually not very persuasive). I'm just stating that I have limited sympathy for them as they are not as credible as you think. Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. There ar…

> they are not as credible as you think Again, how do you know what I think? I'm not as dumb as you think. > Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. It's not my judgement, it's a matter of human rights. Whether I judge it so or not, those people have a right to act and speak freely. It's not up to me (or you or the…

Sorry I didn't mean that. Yes I agree individuals should be able to speak freely. But also we need a bit collectivism and responsibility for a better society. They are not mutually exclusive. It's up to you and me that's right (but I don't know what is the chinese party to do with me).

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#315

Post by dumb1224 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #312
dumb1224 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite obvious they belong to a more sensationalism type of tabloid media. I refer them as 'dubious' due to this credibility issue. I may be wrong but there are definitely evidence of misinformation https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-... Sure in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest). But once it gets a lot of attention and an influ…

> in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest) If you mean that in a democracy, publications need "at least some alignment with party interest", that's certainly not the case. However, given the multitude of political interests, the publication is bound to align somewhat with someone. (Also, I disagree with the term "western democracy": Taiwan is Chinese and has a…

Oh absolutely Sorry for the poor choice of words, I agree with you whole heartily. Again my english is probably too bad to convey the meaning 'any press will align with someone given that there are so many parties and he multitude of political interests'.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#316

Post by wolverine876 »

dumb1224 wrote: post #315
wolverine876 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest) If you mean that in a democracy, publications need "at least some alignment with party interest", that's certainly not the case. However, given the multitude of political interests, the publication is bound to align somewhat with someone. (Also, I disagree with the term "western democracy": Taiwan is Chinese and has a…

Oh absolutely Sorry for the poor choice of words, I agree with you whole heartily. Again my english is probably too bad to convey the meaning 'any press will align with someone given that there are so many parties and he multitude of political interests'.

Sorry, I should be more cognizant that not everyone's English is perfect. Yours is far better than my Cantonese!

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#317

Post by dumb1224 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #313
dumb1224 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry again, I meant 'no one knows all the correct information'. I don't understand why you are so fond of comparison. Fine, I'll attempt one. What you read on New York Times about China could be high recall but low precision; and what I read from chinese sources (not necessarily press) may be high precision but low recall (not sure if I got it right...laugh).

We're kinda going in circles. 'no one knows all the correct information' isn't more meaningful than any other statement about perfection. Some people have far better information than others. Some people believe the earth is flat, others know astrophysics, neither has perfect information but that statement tells us nothing about the information they do have.

I do realise that I'm not contributing much more details or concrete examples so I should probably stop (besides I do have a small child who tends wake up early). Thanks for the discussion and all points taken.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#318

Post by dang »

throwaway292a9 wrote: post #225
naturalauction wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

Please don't post unsubstantive/flamebait comments to HN. Especially please don't cross into slurs. This one was borderline but it certainly fits the format that we don't want here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: if you could please stop creating accounts like this and definitely stop creating accounts to break the site rules with, we'd be grateful.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#319

Post by nojokes »

naturalauction wrote: post #247
nojokes wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination. Minarets do not build themselves. There would be very possibly some money and influence involved from countries that do not share Swiss people values.

>There would be very possibly some money and influence involved from countries that do not share Swiss people values. But then why not address that by banning foreign funding of construction of religious buildings? If Swiss Muslims want to build a minaret on their mosque I personally don't see the harm. But it's clear that others disagree.

I do not know what is really going on here but I can think of something that is similar. Imagine that Swiss communists want to raise a 10m high statue of Stalin. From one point of view it is just a statue but from another point of view it is a huge symbol that in many ways advocates against what Swiss people value.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#320

Post by bakatubas »

wolverine876 wrote: post #278
bakatubas wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All forms of government no matter how big or small are fcorrupt. That’s how it works—they/them who bends the will of the masses wins. Either that’s done by manipulating folks into believing the next candidate will “take their pain away”, or by inflicting pain for non-compliance. Or they change the rules: voter suppression, censorship, etc and pretend they “won the election.” Or they just murder the opposition and bla…

It's plainly fallacious to say there is no difference in corruption, conduct, and outcomes of different governments and different forms of government. To say 'all governments are corrupt' is the same as saying 'all people are violent'; but some are murderers, some got in shoving matches with their siblings when they were 12, and there is the entire range in between.

Well it’s hard to say at the scope of world powers. Maybe small, local governments there’s less. But let’s be honest here, and consider the atrocities of yesteryear. They span the gamut, and they span democracy through authoritarian regimes. The only difference is how it’s conveyed/portrayed to citizens, and how quickly /easily it is for any single party to gain control of a nation.

I agree that some systems are better than others, and there is still hope for better ones to come. But let’s not kid ourselves into believing China has done anything terrible that the USA has not already done in spades.

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