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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#291

Post by GordonS »

BBC-vs-neolibs wrote: post #188
GordonS wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

As I remember it, the protests were incredibly downplayed or ignored in the media, in ways I think would be impossible now. Cellphone footage of the protests would emerge now. I don't know if this would have changed anything, but I often wonder. I felt alone and only later learned there had been large protests basically everywhere.

I remember it differently. I was there in London to protest, but when I returned home and saw the sweeping overhead shots of the crowds on the BBC news, I was awestruck by just how many people there were. You wouldn't capture the scale of it with cellphone footage.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#292

Post by rscoots »

bhawks wrote: post #125

Empty words and token sanctions are not going to stop the CCP's blatant takeover of HK and trashing of the '1 country 2 systems' agreement. Real action - offer US citizenship to Hong Kong era that want it. Then go recognize the Republic of Taiwan as an independent country. Unfortunately the CCP is probably right in their assumption that our politicians are to greedy and spineless to make anything beyond a soundbite g…

>offer US citizenship to Hong Kong era that want it.

Can someone fill me in on how this would causally improve the prospects for Hong Kong's freedom?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#293

Post by dumb1224 »

csomar wrote: post #257
dumb1224 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that's classic historic imperialism I agree, however like you said we are not in such an era anymore and no one, least likely China is to become what you suspected due to the complex economic and political ties. I thought it's worth having an intellectual debate to encourage a better world for everyone, not just polarised opinions that's all.

> we are not in such an era anymore and no one, least likely China is to become what you suspected due to the complex economic and political ties. A collapse of the current status-quo (pax-americana) will force a re-organization of the world map. There is a reason why some countries have disputed claims that they didn't act on (although, militarily, they are within their reach). Such an act will have consequences on…

But that's precisely my point: everyone needs everybody else to exist in the world stage. No one is exceptional even like you said when status-quo changes. Rising powers are all over the globe and they are not guaranteed to stay afloat. I cannot predict the future of course but I don't think the decision makers in China are that naive.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#294

Post by dumb1224 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #272
dumb1224 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand the value of rule of law. And we never deny that the environment there is far from any democratic western society. But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Wi…

> But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my…

That's quite an elevated take of my comment. I never implied they are 'sin' or telling people what to think (it would be a compliment as I'm usually not very persuasive). I'm just stating that I have limited sympathy for them as they are not as credible as you think. Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. There are plenty of good media being punished in mainland China that got people angry and people protested and reversed their ban but the ones in the articles are not those.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#295

Post by hkmaxpro »

dumb1224 wrote: post #294
wolverine876 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my…

That's quite an elevated take of my comment. I never implied they are 'sin' or telling people what to think (it would be a compliment as I'm usually not very persuasive). I'm just stating that I have limited sympathy for them as they are not as credible as you think. Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. There ar…

Can you define “dubious” and “crossing a redline” (so that they need to be shut) according to HK laws?

Without a precise definition we cannot have a fruitful discussion.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#296

Post by tablespoon »

xxpor wrote: post #280
tablespoon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were protesting the elected HK government, not Beijing directly. I don't think it's ever been correct to say the HK government was elected. It had some elected elements, but they were never in the majority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko... . IIRC, one of the five protest demands was for a fully elected government.

The FCs are elected, but by people in the function it sounds like. That's an election, a weird one, but still an election. I'm sure Beijing was pulling the strings but it's not like they were directly appointed.

> That's an election, a weird one, but still an election. I'm sure Beijing was pulling the strings but it's not like they were directly appointed.

IIRC, they're structured so Bejing's allies would control those seats, with few exceptions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_(constituency)). I think most of the "voters" are representatives of industry associations and the like.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#297

Post by tablespoon »

rscoots wrote: post #292
bhawks wrote: post #125

Empty words and token sanctions are not going to stop the CCP's blatant takeover of HK and trashing of the '1 country 2 systems' agreement. Real action - offer US citizenship to Hong Kong era that want it. Then go recognize the Republic of Taiwan as an independent country. Unfortunately the CCP is probably right in their assumption that our politicians are to greedy and spineless to make anything beyond a soundbite g…

>offer US citizenship to Hong Kong era that want it. Can someone fill me in on how this would causally improve the prospects for Hong Kong's freedom?

>> offer US citizenship to Hong Kong era that want it.

> Can someone fill me in on how this would causally improve the prospects for Hong Kong's freedom?

It would improve the prospects for individual Hongkongers' freedom, but it would certainly doom it in Hong Kong itself, and speed its assimilation into mainland China.

Asylum policies seem like a tough call sometimes: you help individuals at the cost tightening the grip of those who oppressed them. Who knows, maybe the PRC could end up democratic in 50 years if enough pro-democracy Hongkongers manage to worm themselves into the PRC political system and find themselves in a position to exploit some future opportunity.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#298

Post by tablespoon »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #252
bhawks wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off disputed borders are a very common occurrence in geo politics. It rarely prevents country C from recognizing both country A and country B. Outside of the Taiwan case I can't think of a situation where a border claim dispute effectively locked a country out of nearly all international forums (or crippled it to the point of having no significant voice). The situation is very unique to say the least, but let's…

The trouble seems to be that Taiwan is a government in exile, having lost to the CCP. Recognizing a government in exile is very different from recognizing the independence of state. If they do maintain claims to the rest of Chinese territory they would have to renounce those before being recognized.

> If they do maintain claims to the rest of Chinese territory they would have to renounce those before being recognized.

Which is a PRC red line, oddly enough. Taiwan renouncing its claims would be interpreted as rejecting the one China policy.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#299

Post by tablespoon »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #108
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #78

If you are in HK and you're able, I'd recommend leaving and bring as much family with you as you can. It's not going to get better there, at this point.

Does it seem weird to anyone else that a foreigner would say this? Surely someone else living there would understand their own situation better.

> Does it seem weird to anyone else that a foreigner would say this? Surely someone else living there would understand their own situation better.

Yeah, it should be phrased as a welcome (e.g. come here, we want to take you), not a warning (flee now).

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#300

Post by laurent92 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #263
Dah00n wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't make any difference, why is it important? It seems it is a security valve working directly against the average citizen that is "willing to fight to the death to preserve it". It is there to keep the status quo.

> If it doesn't make any difference Can you support that? History is filled with protests leading to change. Just looking at 100 years off the top of my head: Women's vote, Gandhi, civil rights, S. Korea, the fall of the Soviet Block, the Arab Spring ...

As GP said, protests are scenarized. It looks like good protests are successful, but other protests are just delegitimized by inserting violent people in them and not arresting them.

In France, countless pictures of pallets of bricks being delivered to demonstration sites in the night before the protest opposed to the leading party, in addition to criminals not being arrested, should at least give you a doubt on how much the “bad vs good” show is artificial.

Many legitimate protests from people who actually are minorities in their nations, were put in bad light and you never heard of them.

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