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Chrome is Not the Standard

chriskrycho.com

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Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#311

Post by threeseed »

Waterluvian wrote: post #270
NightlyDev wrote: post #169

"Safari ships new features on a much slower cadence, but they’re usually solid and always perform incredibly well" Well, clearly this person doesn't have much experience with web development... The webengine in iOS is the biggest pile of crap I've ever worked with since IE6. "Oh? You want to click this? OK, let's wait for 300 ms just in case you want to double tap to scroll!" "We finally fixed it, no more delay on cl…

Oh so you want a large canvas on an iPad? No, F you. That might impact performance so we restrict it.

Some of the iPads have a very limited amount of memory e.g. 1GB.

I think users would be expecting Apple to curtail your ability to crash or hang the browser.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#312

Post by jrochkind1 »

> Many times, when this latter tack happens, developers grouse about the other browser makers who are “holding the web back.” But there is a fundamental problem in this way of looking at things: Chrome isn’t the standard. The fact that Chrome proposes something, and even the fact that a bunch of developers like it, does not a standard make.

WHATWG taking over the "standard" certainly muddies the waters. It's theoretically not just what a single browser vendor proposes or implements... but it is whatever the browser-dominated WHATWG says it is... on any given day... and effectively is whatever the most powerful browser vendors implement or propose (ie, Chrome).

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#313

Post by threeseed »

connorelsea wrote: post #259
foobarz wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in time, Microsoft invested heavily in program analysis to fix those hideous BSODs due to broken third-party drivers. It was very successful. Apple's problem is simpler as they own the code, and bugs are likely to come from understaffed engineering.

Apple's self-contained platform, huge sums of money, and massive upgrade adoption rates would make it very easy for them to ship modern software. They for some reason choose not to

iOS and OSX isn't modern software ?

I am curious about the qualities an operating system needs to be deemed "modern".

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#314

Post by jrochkind1 »

chriskrycho wrote: post #240
drvortex wrote: post #192

Standards are irrelevant to pragmatism. De facto standards are what is important. By virture of sheer popularity, Chrome is the de facto standard. And if they have provided anything that becomes useful or popular, then by virtue of popularity of that feature in what is already the post popular browser, makes that feature part of the de facto standard. The post is just pedantic whining about how something isn't accord…

Not only did I not whine about something in a written document, I never once mentioned WHATWG or anything other standards body. (That was intentional.) I explicitly call out the vendors and their mutual implementations . The "standard" I care about is the truly living standard of what every browser implements. The point here is that the _de facto_ standard is not Chrome, and if it were that'd be a bad thing. (We've b…

Every browser has never implemented exactly the same things in exactly the same ways, and never will. There will always, at least, be bugs.

A "de facto standard" of "what browsers implement" is no standard at all. This is why standards matter. "What the actually existing software implements" is what you have when you _don't have standards_.

The vendor-dominated, standard-changes-every-day WHATWG "living standard" is relevant to the situation here, I think, even if you'd rather it not be. If it's a living standard that's always changing, and it's specifically changing based on _what software does_... then Chrome doing something seems like as much of a standard as anything. It may or may not be added to the standard the next day, but the standard seems to encourage people to use things that aren't in it yet.

The WHATWG process, if I understand it right, specifically requires (at least) two browser vendors to implement a thing _before_ it's added to the standard. Yes, two is more than one. But not a lot more. :)

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#315

Post by abiox »

raguuu wrote: post #225
abiox wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it markets my information to advertisers and what other uses?

That is the whole point. You know it does it, fair game. Mozilla is speaking one doing and doing shady things also.

my point was that people don't know the full scope and nature of what google does, so suggesting they're 'better' is comical.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#316

Post by flyinghamster »

j605 wrote: post #292
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome doesn't magically revert privacy or search engine settings in updates, but Firefox apparently does. To quote from https://drewdevault.com/2017/12/16/Firefox-is-on-a-slippery-... : > Not only are these experiments enabled by default, but updates have been known to re-enable it if you turn it off. Chrome has some troubling defaults but Google never decided to flip the default search engine or turn on any phone-h…

Prove it or show code! This statements sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. I ran the beta and when it became the release version, I changed my update channel to "release." It has not reverted any settings I've made.

I also had the Shield stuff turned off (my choice), and it hasn't been reverted, nor did the Mr. Robot extension ever show up. I agree, though, that that was a Bad Idea.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#317

Post by connorelsea »

threeseed wrote: post #313
connorelsea wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's self-contained platform, huge sums of money, and massive upgrade adoption rates would make it very easy for them to ship modern software. They for some reason choose not to

iOS and OSX isn't modern software ? I am curious about the qualities an operating system needs to be deemed "modern".

I personally love iOS and macOS and use them both daily. Though there are facets of both that I think could easily be improved given Apple's position.

Off the top of my head -

A. Slow development cycles on Safari (they're getting better, but still) while simultaneously blocking competitors on iOS

B. A number of embarrassing security failures on macOS recently

C. A lack of focus on macOS (Probably the cause of B)

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#318

Post by mark-r »

CydeWeys wrote: post #287
mark-r wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this recent post Google is in charge of the master list that all the other browsers use. Expect the .dev domains to stop working on those other browsers shortly. https://medium.engineering/use-a-dev-domain-not-anymore-9521...

I'm the tech lead of Google Registry and the reason our TLDs ended up on that list, and I'd like to add a clarification here. Google isn't "in charge of" the HSTS preload list per se. The owner of each individual website is in charge of whether or not they are on the list. It is true that the Chrome team happens to manage the list, but the contents of the list wouldn't be any different were it to be managed by anyone…

Understood, and sorry if some imprecision in my language led to misunderstandings. But because the list is maintained by Google, it means that Chrome is the first browser to expose changes to the list. I thought the article that I linked gave a good overview of how we got to where we are.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#319

Post by connorelsea »

joshred wrote: post #276
connorelsea wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a low market share Apple could still theoretically be engaging in practices that are anti-consumer, such as disallowing the use of other browser engines. Though, afaik, Apple does not stoop to the levels of Amazon, who removed the Twitch app from Roku platform for absolutely no reason other than to line their pockets with more cash.

Before they purchased it?

Nah, after - to make it a "Fire TV Exclusive" app

http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/amazon-pulls-twitch-channel-r...

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#320

Post by wwweston »

kevin_b_er wrote: post #84
syshum wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Mozilla's biggest screw up IMO was failing to disclose properly what was going on. That was not the only issue 1. Failure to Disclose it before distribution 2. Failure to Properly name or provide any support context to the Add In. 3. Using the "Studies" System designed to improve the technology and advance the web browser for this Adware "Easter egg" not really an Easter egg addin 4. Failure to Publicly Comment abo…

Then you can go back to chrome or chromium, both of which Google has pushed a binary plugin to that records voice in the past. Debian had to raise a storm over it and turned into a compile-time only option to not get the microphone listening plugin on your chromium install.

Speaking for myself, I'm not going back to Chrome over this alone -- I'm pleased with how FF57 handles and enough of Mozilla's positive efforts over time that I'm unlikely to let this event define them if they take steps to make sure it's an anomaly.

But every one of these things seems like legit issues that I'd like to see made an anomaly, and it's conceivable that if Mozilla isn't able to make it crystal clear that they know how to make things go that way, Chrome might well be the right choice.

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