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Chrome is Not the Standard

chriskrycho.com

81–90 of 465 posts

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#81
The problem as I see it is that the public data that users want to access is packaged in such a way as to maximize its exposure through Googles channels, be it a search engine with a proprietary ranking algorithm, a browser with certain unique features/quirks[1], a new HTTP version that allows stuffing more tracking information into HTTP headers, etc. While a mere three examples does not do justice to their achievements, there are honestly so many examples to list at this point it would be a disturbing exercise to be comprehensive.

It is not worth debating whether this impressive work is part of a plan by a corporation or a conspiracy among multiple corporations to steer/takeover "open" standards. (From past experience, it can be assumed that corporations will try.) The important point is the effect that this work is having, irrespective of intent.

The author uses Microsoft or Apple as an analogy. Question: If something goes wrong at the corporation -- e.g., as we see today MS is not what it used to be, at least not in the browser market -- then what happens to the corporate-driven "standard"? Will Chrome always be the #1 browser?

It should not matter.

If people believe it does matter, then we know people are not aiming at complying with a open, immortal standard, they are aiming at being compatible with a present-day successful corporation, hoping to ride on their coattails.

I submit to the reader that whatever "standards" the corporation creates may well die out if the success of the corporation ever begins to fade. Keep in mind also that these "features" that the corporation has introduced as "standards" may have been introduced primarily to benefit that corporations business (and business model). They are the largest/primary implementer. Maybe their software is the only software that ever used the feature. If the software "disappears" from use because the corporations business falters they stop developing it, then what good is the standard (e.g. if it is too difficult, not well-enough understood or for whatever reason that other software authors did not implement it)?

I leave it to the reader to draw some examples of where this may have happened in the past from the internet and web archives. It could be exhausting if one were to try to be comprehensive.

1. This is only personal opinion but when it takes a minimum of two hours to compile a "browser" (as suggested by one corporation that sponsors one of these monstrosities), then clearly that is a problem. It should cause people to question. Instead it effectively stops people from compiling -- they give up and just accept the binary distribution. By comparison, IME (please do not assume I am referring to Linux) it only takes a fraction of an hour even on modest hardware to compile a complex kernel. Kernel development may not be for everyone, but there is no reason I can imagine why every users "web browser" needs to be a single program of that size and complexity. Personal opinion. Others may disagree. I respect everyones opinion but am entitled to have one that differs.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No and I think your opinion is harmful. IE literally refused to implement standards, rendered broken dom elements, allowed for proprietary native extensions and had many different apis for them. They had 90% of the market share and no other viable platforms. This meant developers built things which exploited these broken features causing huge compatibility issues when they aren’t (every other browser). A simple lack…

Chrome is implementing a standard that pretty much all other modern browsers are also implementing. For example, service workers - implemented by Chrome initially and pretty heavily integrated into Android/PWAs - but Firefox and Safari are also shipping this feature currently. And also most features, such as service workers, can be effectively used with progressive enhancement, still providing a working experience to…

Sorry, the op is right. Safari IS the new IE.

Service workers is one of the most egregious failures on their part. And I believe it's been done on purpose. With service workers you get full control over building your JS based app, something Apple does not want, they want everyone to got through their store.

Considering that the only way (moving forward) to create an offline JS app now is through service workers, and Apple is just starting to get it working, _maybe_ for the next version of Safari.

https://caniuse.com/#search=service%20workers

What does this mean? It means that it may take one or two more _years_ of _hardware_ updates to get iOS users able to use a javascript feature in their browser.

As far as I know, iOS and Safari are knitted together like MS did to Windows and IE. Try and get a new version of Safari that doesn't match with the version of iOS you are running.

I could go on about the state of local storage and other HTML5 debacles on Safari, but it's total loser and I am only going to make myself upset.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#83
post #69

Yeah. Yet, sites like Seamless glitch horribly in Firefox, and their tech support answers "try it in Chrome". Very annoying.

Actually, it is the opposite for me. Works fine in both, but in Chrome - if I open developer tools - I get 19 warnings and 1 error. None in FF.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#84
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mr. Robot thing was not "malware". It was an easter egg, just like about:mozilla. You may say it was poor taste on Mozilla's part, since it was essentially a paid-for promotional tie-in with a TV show, and I would probably agree with you. But it did not damage anyone's computer, compromise any data or do anything that could put it on the "Malware" category. Something similar that noone has complained about are th…

>>Mozilla's biggest screw up IMO was failing to disclose properly what was going on. That was not the only issue 1. Failure to Disclose it before distribution 2. Failure to Properly name or provide any support context to the Add In. 3. Using the "Studies" System designed to improve the technology and advance the web browser for this Adware "Easter egg" not really an Easter egg addin 4. Failure to Publicly Comment abo…

Then you can go back to chrome or chromium, both of which Google has pushed a binary plugin to that records voice in the past.

Debian had to raise a storm over it and turned into a compile-time only option to not get the microphone listening plugin on your chromium install.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#85

Chrome is the de facto standard at this time and all of the irrelevant, hyperbolic nitpicking and dubious conjecture isn't going to change that. But here's a thought: WebKit and Chromium (and Blink) are open source, so maybe don't worry about it? Furthermore, if all browsers don't work the same then that's a problem for developers. If we can't have that - I'd rather see just one browser engine in use by the majority…

Chrome is not Chromium, however. Just because there is a nougaty open source center doesn't mean that Chrome is entirely free from proprietary software worries and worries about Google's commercial interests infringing upon user interests/greater web interests.

Additionally, Chromium isn't WebKit either. Blink forked from WebKit some time back and the fork continues to diverge, with WebKit and Blink disagreeing on some implementations.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#86
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't just screw up once . They've screwed up many times over the years with many projects and attempts that run counter to the core values that Mozilla claims to uphold. Bryan Lunduke articulated this very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMALm1VthGY At this point Mozilla has to prove to us that they are worthy of our usage

I don't really understand this attitude. Mozilla doesn't need to be everything I ever wanted from a browser in order to get my support. It only needs to be better than Google. Are all these people sticking with Chrome because Mozilla is not holding up to its values really think Google is better at taking care of our freedom?!

Mozilla is fighting an uphill battle, but that doesn't give them a free pass. The Pocket, Cliqz, and Mr. Robot controversies undermine Mozilla's core message. Whether or not they are simply failures of marketing and branding doesn't change the fact that they hurt the company. That being said, a lot of people will never know about these issues so the damage is not catastrophic.

I would also argue that "just being better than X" was shown not to be effective in the last US Presidential election.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#87
post #77

Chrome is the de facto standard at this time and all of the irrelevant, hyperbolic nitpicking and dubious conjecture isn't going to change that. But here's a thought: WebKit and Chromium (and Blink) are open source, so maybe don't worry about it? Furthermore, if all browsers don't work the same then that's a problem for developers. If we can't have that - I'd rather see just one browser engine in use by the majority…

That would be great if Chromium/Chrome used WebKit, they dont. They stopped using Webkit years ago

Yeah, they use Blink which is a fork of WebKit and open source as well.

So I guess it is great, isn't it?

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't just screw up once . They've screwed up many times over the years with many projects and attempts that run counter to the core values that Mozilla claims to uphold. Bryan Lunduke articulated this very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMALm1VthGY At this point Mozilla has to prove to us that they are worthy of our usage

I don't really understand this attitude. Mozilla doesn't need to be everything I ever wanted from a browser in order to get my support. It only needs to be better than Google. Are all these people sticking with Chrome because Mozilla is not holding up to its values really think Google is better at taking care of our freedom?!

Google is transparent. I know what they are doing. I know why they are doing it.

Mozilla became a shady character. It engages in "it depends on a meaning of the word 'is'" speak.

Here's how Mozilla can get back into my graces - it needs to publicly FIRE whoever approved it and whoever advocated for this project.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only way to disable Pocket was to go into "about:config", as the option was not available in the "Extensions" toolbar. This isn't exactly correct. The Pocket integration did absolutely nothing at all until and unless you tried to use it. So by "disabling" it from about:config all you did was to remove the icon.

Sure, but until you do Firefox comes bundled with an ad for Pocket in the toolbar at all times.

Or until you right click the icon and remove it.

Re: Chrome is Not the Standard

#90
post #8
post #3

"Safari ships new features on a much slower cadence, but they’re usually solid and always perform incredibly well." I really don't agree at all with this, Safari is the new Internet explorer ... https://www.safari-is-the-new-ie.com/

I sometimes feel like Chrome is the new Internet Explorer too! There have been a number of GSuite features from Google that don't work on Firefox. Google Hangouts for one! Also on that list was U2F auth and some others. Here we have Google products that only work on the Google browser. What does that sound like? Maybe Microsoft and all their ActiveX IE shenanigans in the past! The moral of the story, which I think th…

U2F isn't a Google product.

Virtually all new major browser features are built according to standards, proposals, or explicit extensions platforms. See https://www.w3.org/TR/, where it's very easy to map recent browser features to standards or healthy proposals. Your proselytizing would be more appropriate in Redmond, Washington in 2007.

I'm not sure what gives you the impression that successful standards are developed in a vacuum. You're right that some are, but most of those are terrible technologies that were designed by the "hard work" you think got us where we are today.

The rest -- the good ones -- are battle-tested through gradual deployment and iterative improvement, eventually emerging nearly unrecognizable from their original vision, but genuinely useful and usable.

Only then does the "hard work" of advocacy begin.

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