Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#311

Post by RyanZAG » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #231

RyanZAG wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn't all that different, so it's probably about more than just reddit. For example, you can post the same remarks criticizing functional programming in a post about C# or Java and get upvotes, while the same post in a Haskell discussion will be downvoted. You can try the experiment yourself to verify it. This applies to companies as well - you will be upvoted for pro-Microsoft or anti-Google posts in a news topic…

It's significantly better in my experience. It's not perfect but you can actually have a plurality of opinions on a subject. I think the fact that the community is tighter and that low karma accounts can't actually downvote help massively. Also no visible scores which reduces the "gaming" aspect. I kind of wish HN would go a little further still and ration downvotes for everybody, it shouldn't be something you throw…

That's true. Maybe the issue is that when there's only a 'down' and an 'up' button, people infer everything into it. Maybe we should have an 'up' button for interesting posts, a 'flag' button for posts that don't add to the discussion, and 'agree' and 'disagree' buttons to make it clear that it's a different thing from upvoting a comment.

Then people could turn on or off some way to see which posts are heavily agreed or disagreed with without downvoting interesting posts just because you disagree. You could even have a system where you mark people you respect and then only see which posts they agreed with to get a more personal feel? Might be an interesting discussion board idea to pursue.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

Top19 wrote: post #44

aloukissas wrote: post #18

One statistic that's commonly left out of these discussions & articles is how late parents save for college. According to Sallie Mae ( http://news.salliemae.com/publication/how-america-saves-coll... ), most families don't start saving before their oldest child reaches 7 years old. This effectively robs 1/3 of the investment period's growth potential. Another one (as perhaps a consequence of the previous fact) is that…

Your point is interesting. That being said, ughh anyone who pushes this smacks of neoliberalism. Wow now parents have to save from the birth of their child. When will it start being considered “responsible” to save 10 years before a child is born and if you don’t you’re irresponsible cuz you missed 10 years of growth. When will it start being considered “responsible” to save for your grandkids college?

What does neoliberalism have anything to do with it?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by jdmichal » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

Raidion wrote: post #261

jdmichal wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say "bite the bullet, and that's what banks get for giving out risky loans" but we know that's not going to play out that way, especially since the gov owns a fair portion. > Making tuition free is nice... I think it's funny that you have these two ideas so close together... The government owning most of the loans provides a very easy path to enabling free college retroactively: extinguish all the loans. The go…

That punishes everyone who took out private loans or worked to put themselves through college. Not to mention it hurts those who worked to pay down their loans earlier. There are a lot of ways of socializing the cost of education, doing it retroactively opens up a whole can of worms.

That's where a TARP-like buyback would come into play. Negotiate to buy private student loans and extinguish them also. I know there are charity-type groups that do this with mortgages, though I'm having trouble finding any links at this current moment.

But, honestly, I'm not a huge fan of logic lines that sound like, "We can't help everyone, so therefore we should help no one." We should absolutely strive to help everyone we can. And if there's still a population remaining afterwards which requires help, then we can talk about why they weren't helped before and figure out whether and how to reach them also.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by drngdds » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

College demand is insanely high because of education inflation. Employers require a college degree for most white-collar jobs. I think a better solution would be to rework college. It doesn't make sense that you need a four-year degree including a bunch of irrelevant classes to get your foot in the door at any white collar job. The standard for higher education should be probably leaner and more focused on useful skills for a particular area. And if hiring was based more on objective tests of knowledge and ability, you wouldn't have as many people spending lots of money to go to prestigious universities.

(I don't know how or if any of this could be accomplished.)

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #271

toomuchtodo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare cuts->Elderly dying off faster->Voter demographic change. Law of unintended consequences? Possibly. I can see the political winds shifting back hard over the next 3 years. Enough Puerto Ricans might have moved to Florida already to turn the state blue. Won't know until next elections.

A lot of people Puerto Ricans are moving to traditionally blue Florida locations. SE Florida, Orlando, Tampa are the 3 most populous areas and all are strongly blue. Through gerrymandering they'll continue to get the same representation.

[deleted]

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by matwood » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

sli wrote: post #303

elif wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's wrong with a 4-year vacation where you enrich your mind? That sounds perfectly healthy on an individual level, and tolerable on a societal level. Perhaps even necessary if you consider the deterioration of discourse in this country. Also, It's not like food and housing becomes free when tuition is removed.

Perhaps we could make only the first time through college free. If you fail or drop out, the next time through, the student covers tuition themselves. I have no real opinion on that idea, or any idea how effective it would be, so I'll say nothing more.

Someone would still have living expenses so it's not like they could just hang out at school the whole time. If someone really wants to work in restaurants and be a professional student who cares?

Realistically, having college remain free helps people who later in life want to change careers, but need some education to do so. We pay a lot of lip service in the US to retraining the workforce, yet do little to facilitate the training.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by JBlue42 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

wutangson1 wrote: post #199

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

where did this concept of college as a 4 year vacation come from? You have to show up to class, study, be diligent, and apply effective time management skills. Otherwise, you'll be put on academic probation and then kicked out. Even for those people who seem to have a knack for finding lax professors and classes, coasting is not necessarily a college student thing.

>where did this concept of college as a 4 year vacation come from?

It seems to be something in the echo chamber of HN / startup world that has become common over the past 5-6 years. They seem to not understand that having a college degree is pretty much a requirement for any decent-paying job these days or hopes to have one that will in the future. From an economic standpoint, people with degrees have higher wages.

The real issue is the cost of colleges and the loans that people take out to attend. Rather than addressing that (though some commenters have made the attempt) they'd rather say for kids to not go at all and thus limit their future opportunities for work as well as intellectual growth.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by JBlue42 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

WkndTriathlete wrote: post #110

JonFish85 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not thinking just SS. Imagine in 30-40 years when SW engineers are retiring with their $5m 401k, but their neighbor is still barely making rent at their service-level job. I imagine there are many more people who have foregone retirement savings to pay off their massive college loans. Politically, the story would be something like this: why should you, a multi-millionaire SW engineer who hasn't paid taxes on your…

Strangely enough that proposal was floated around in earlier versions of the currently proposed tax bill: the 401(k) yearly contribution cap was going to drop from $18,000/year to $2,400/year. That would have driven savings into Roth 401(k)s/Roth IRAs so that the tax income would be realized sooner rather than later. I currently save at a 50/50 mix of 401(k)/Roth 401(k) just in case the scenario you described comes t…

I was a bit miffed to learn that the max contribution for an IRA and Roth IRA combined is only $5,500. I did some reading and understand the point of it but I would much prefer to be in control of my own money and where it is invested than some of the limited options given through an employer's 401k.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by jackweirdy » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #277

jedberg wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, which is why this would be a special additional tax that is just for college graduates and just goes back to the colleges.

This is the system we have in the UK. The crucial differences between having it as an extra tier of income tax of 9% above £21k (going to £25k soon) are 1) Those that don't directly benefit from university (say you become an electrician) don't have to pay 2) Those that earn millions don't pay it - they pay their £50k loan off (40% of that is living costs), but then those people tend to avoid income tax anyway 3) Thos…

There are a large number of people who will pay back multiples of their original loan amount (pay back ~£90k over 30 years on a £40k loan) if they earn moderately high salaries to start with and progress to high salaries within the last 15 years or so of their 30 year loan lifetime.

The extortionate interest keeps a middle tier of professionals paying well after they've cleared their original loan amount.

Not to mention - I have no doubt 30 years will be changed to 35, and then 40, when the day to write off the debt actually comes.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Post by andrewjl » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

throwaway30yo wrote: post #301

andrewjl wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society benefits when people get more educated, period, including better voting decision, more civic engagement, and ability to build social ties across class, ethnic, and ideological lines.

Sure, but a modern day University is not a great model for education. All of the information from a 4 year degree can be found on the internet for free. Essentially you are buying accountability and for some majors getting past their barriers of entry.

It's not about information. It's about learning how to work with others in the context of a complex institution, critical thinking by interacting with others who have different viewpoints, and in the case of post graduate degrees creating new knowledge.

Those things cannot be done over the Internet easily.