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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#291

Post by [deleted] »

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #104
JonFish85 wrote: post #79

To me, this is another implementation of the housing bubble: - People see college graduates making a lot of money - Politicians make it a priority to make it easier for people to get loans to go to college - More people take out loans to go to college - Colleges realize there is no downward pressure on price and raise tuition. - Politicians continue to make it easy for people to go to college - People take bigger loa…

But as far as I know student loans aren't securitized and leveraged in the same way as mortgages were, so I'm not sure that the fall out will be as bad. The root problem (as others have noted) is too many people are encouraged to go to college and even though most majors don't make economic sense students (rightly) feel that they need a college degree to be a competitive applicant for good jobs. Maybe I'm just in an…

[deleted]

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#292

Post by logfromblammo »

bluGill wrote: post #83
umbrellathorn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

There is the problem. I have full respect for "useless" degrees. If people want one then they should get one. However since it is "useless" you should not be mortgaging your future to get it. Get a "real job" first and pay for the degree out of your pocket, perhaps taking night classes. As a member of society I need you to take care of yourself. You are a burden on society if you don't have a productive job paying yo…

As another member of society, I think you need to rethink your position on what it means to be a burden on society.

You are not a burden just by not having a "productive job, paying your own way". You are a burden if you deny people their essential human dignity, by forcing them to conform to your vision of what they should be in order to eat. You are a burden if you take for yourself a surplus and do not use it to supply those with a dearth. You are a burden if you lie, cheat, steal, and assault. You are a burden if you do not respect and appreciate the hundreds of people working in harmony who helped each other to ensure you survived to adulthood with enough education to write your own opinions.

If all you do is sit on a couch with a cannabis vape and a game console, you're no burden to me. Some people keep house cats, and have no problem feeding them without getting much of anything in return. A "non-productive" human may yet do something. It might not be great, but could be at least marginally useful, if we allow them the time for their calling to mature and motivate them to action. Or they could just be a dud for their entire life. I don't really need to make a monkey dance in order to throw it a nut.

I don't particularly need you to take care of yourself. I may even be willing to pitch in with others to take care of you, on the conditions that you first do no harm to others, and then that you give back in whatever way you feel you are able. But that generosity only extends as far as what I think you may need. If you want something extra, you're going to need to give a little more before you get it.

We are way past the era of "no work; no eat" edicts. Thanks to our machines, we don't have a labor problem any more; we have an information problem. The systems in place for connecting creators with consumers, to everyone's mutual benefit, have never been entirely adequate, and haven't scaled very well to a world of 7.6 billion people.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#294

Post by heywot »

jobu wrote: post #36
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> for a useless degree they'll never use Another part of the problem is that there's really no such thing as a useless degree. A person may never use what they learned from that degree, but the fact that they were able to earn a degree is still used by employers as a bar to judge potential employees.

Which is a really frustrating thing. I have family members who didn't go to college who could not pursue certain careers (or, struggled to advance their careers) because they don't have piece of paper - even if it had nothing to do with the career itself. In tech it has become less of an issue but I would love to see this go away for everyone.

Being able to get a four year degree does not signal that a potential employee is better than someone that doesn't. Especially the way higher education has gone in my lifetime.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#295

Post by JonFish85 »

enraged_camel wrote: post #286
JonFish85 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not thinking just SS. Imagine in 30-40 years when SW engineers are retiring with their $5m 401k, but their neighbor is still barely making rent at their service-level job. I imagine there are many more people who have foregone retirement savings to pay off their massive college loans. Politically, the story would be something like this: why should you, a multi-millionaire SW engineer who hasn't paid taxes on your…

>>I'm not thinking just SS. Imagine in 30-40 years when SW engineers are retiring with their $5m 401k, but their neighbor is still barely making rent at their service-level job. It's interesting that you believe people with $5M+ networth would have service workers as neighbors. :)

Why is that interesting? After working for 40 years, saving religiously, it’s entirely possible that they’re living a solid middle class lifestyle not much different from someone else who also lives the same lifestyle but rents and doesn’t save money.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#296

Post by elif »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155
jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

what's wrong with a 4-year vacation where you enrich your mind?

That sounds perfectly healthy on an individual level, and tolerable on a societal level. Perhaps even necessary if you consider the deterioration of discourse in this country.

Also, It's not like food and housing becomes free when tuition is removed.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#297

Post by damontal »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #182
zjaffee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People neglect to realize that a master plumber can make just as much as a software engineer should they have the skillset to be on the right kind of projects.

But quality of life is much higher for the software engineer, so assuming it's just as easy to be both, pay would need to be much higher for the plumber to incentivize people to do it.

Is it? I had some plumbers doing work in my house last year. They were pretty happy guys. Playing music on the radio, singing while they were at work. Meanwhile i'm here sitting at a desk all day.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#298

Post by robocat »

sorrymate wrote: post #240
wmeredith wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I posted elsewhere in this thread... The majority cost increase (65%)[1] of higher education in the US over the last couple decades is due to a systematic defunding of government support for schools. It would be nice if we started investing in our country's education again. [1]2015 Study by the New York Federal Reserve - https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff...

Unfortunately this is only the start. It seems Republicans have started a war on education. "a majority (58%) of Republicans say colleges and universities are having a negative effect on the way things are going in the country" We should be continuing to encourage higher education in addition to trade schools. Bachelor Degree holders, on average, earn a million dollars more during their life time than those who only…

> hundreds of thousands of dollars more earned than if you were to not achieve a degree.

But will that still hold as the percentage of people getting degrees rises?

In the limit everyone gets a degree, and the average wage for a degree holder is the average wage.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#299

Post by dv_dt »

martin_bech wrote: post #273
dv_dt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, I would think that running the system that way is actually cheaper and more efficient than the US way where we seem to be moving towards individually accounting for every dollar of education for payback - all while the overall system spirals out of cost controls. It's much simpler to supply gov't budgets direct to public schools with oversight for spending. Vs open loans which little cost accountability. (well a…

If you think about it, there is absolutely no reason, for education beeing expensive, if priced by actual cost (books, materiel, professors) instead of beeing priced by perceived value (ie. What will my future earnings be, what will my financing look like, are my parents paying etc.)

I've never thought of it exactly that way - but it makes a lot of sense. One way to summarize that idea is "cost-of-goods" public budgeting are much more efficient to run vs "value-of-education" priced student loans.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#300

Post by joshshifman »

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

I would disagree that it is way too easy to get money for college. I co-founded a company that is aimed at giving loans to students who are often denied credit in the traditional market, primarily because they lack credit worthy cosigners. This amounts to about 2m students every year.
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