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Fired

zachholman.com

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Re: Fired

#301

Post by chroma »

spiritplumber wrote: post #295
ianlevesque wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can do everything right and still get fired And that's why much of the world has a social safety net.

You can also get fired FOR doing everything right. It happened to me once. I fired back. All I had to do was publicize the fact that the so-called CEO was selling weed on a NASA installation as a side business, which is an extremely stupid thing to do and an even stupider thing to tell your so-called subordinate about (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the busi…

Your story is short and doesn't mention many potentially important facts, but it left me with the impression that you are rather vengeful. Selling marijuana may be illegal and unwise, but it's not very harmful.

> (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous).

And so humble!

Re: Fired

#302

Post by hugofirth »

dragonwriter wrote: post #298
hugofirth wrote: post #294

There is lots of interesting information in this thread, with several references to a "Fire fast" culture becoming more common amongst tech companies. As a UK citizen, I have to ask: Are the employment laws a lot weaker in the US? In general it would be difficult to institute such a policy over here without a half decent lawyer shredding you to pieces. [1],[2] for ref. [1]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/busine…

> Are the employment laws a lot weaker in the US? Don't know about the details of the UK specifically, but, yes, employment protection laws in the US are all-but-non-existent, with at-will employment allowing immediate termination for any but specifically-prohibited (e.g., race, sex, religious, etc., discrimination, retaliation for invoking certain other protections, etc.) reasons.

I'm genuinely shocked by this. I'm all for free market mechanisms but come on ... a system without strong employee protection must be naturally prone to abuse.

Re: Fired

#303

Post by ssalazar »

abalone wrote: post #279
skwirl wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it is a very American way of doing business. But you haven't put forward any argument against it, other than basically saying that it makes you feel icky. We have a very individualistic culture in America. It has its positives and negatives. But most of the people here (software developers in America) have greatly benefited from that culture - we have a tremendous amount of opportunity in a field we enj…

> We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets. You're making a logical leap that this is because of firing people. Other small factors might include, for example, billions of dollars of U.S. government funding in high tech research, sustained over many decades, the fruits of which are directly transferred to Silicon Valley companies to bring to market. I…

You're right, its not always possible to untangle the web of causality. But as a contrast, the American industries where firing is nigh-impossible for performance-related reasons (K-12 education, civil service) by and large perform terribly overall.

Re: Fired

#304

Post by markcampbell »

NateDad wrote: post #124
cylinder wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have mandatory unemployment insurance which pays pretty well. These are well-paid white collar professionals, they should be saving up emergency funds. I'm more worried about the safety net for low- and mid-income workers, as well as the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment.

Uh, have you been on unemployment? There's a max. In Massachusetts it's $698 / week (with no taxes taken out). That would only barely cover my mortgage, let alone car payment, food, health insurance, etc. And yes, people should have emergency funds... but when you were a few years out of college, did you have 3-6 months of salary saved up? I certainly didn't.

3-6 months of salary is not the measurement. You need an emergency fund of 3-6 months of expenses. That amount is easily achievable for someone who is a few years out of college which is generally someone who is young, no mortgage, and no dependents.

If someone wants to make the commitments of mortgages or dependents, then that's on them and they still need to have that 3-6 month emergency fund, except the amount will be higher because of the added responsibilities.

Re: Fired

#305

Post by joesmo »

zbowling wrote: post #256
NateDad wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify.... it's retroactive for 60 days. That means you don't really have to do anything for the first 45-ish, and if you don't need insurance in that time, and you get a new job, you're done. If you do need insurance (break a leg or something), then you can apply then, and it'll take effect retroactively to your departure date. If you get to 45-ish days and still don't have a new job that'll start before th…

In the pre-existing condition days, this could still be an issue, because not being covered at any point would reset the clock.

I don't see how. There is no lapse in coverage at all. That's what retroactive means.

Re: Fired

#306

Post by spiritplumber »

chroma wrote: post #301
spiritplumber wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also get fired FOR doing everything right. It happened to me once. I fired back. All I had to do was publicize the fact that the so-called CEO was selling weed on a NASA installation as a side business, which is an extremely stupid thing to do and an even stupider thing to tell your so-called subordinate about (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the busi…

Your story is short and doesn't mention many potentially important facts, but it left me with the impression that you are rather vengeful. Selling marijuana may be illegal and unwise, but it's not very harmful. > (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous). And so…

Being vengeful is sometimes necessary. It's not a virtue, but it's not a vice either. If the market for justice is inelastic or rigged, make your own. The hard part is to not go overboard - being fair to someone who hurt you, once you have them beaten, requires great self-discipline.

And yes, if someone just sort of declares themselves CEO in interviews just because they have a famous relative and have an easier time getting invited to talks, me insisting that we are equal partner is humble. This person contributed little else to the business.

I don't have a problem with marijuana (don't want any, but it should be legal), I have a problem with people who steal credit for my work.

Re: Fired

#307

Post by markcampbell »

showsover wrote: post #162
mod wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the "social safety net" was intended to keep wealthy people wealthy. It's to ensure basic needs are met. If you want to remain wealthy, you should probably not count on unemployment to play a role in that.

And in Belgium, you are wrong about that. If you take home 1500€ net each month, and lose your job, social security first gives you around the same 1450 - 1500. After a few months (I think 3 or so) it goes down to 1300 or so, until you get a maximum of X where X is around the minimum living wage. This is to ensure that people don't have to sell or move immediately after being fired. Which makes sense.

This example is flawed. What is the max take home pay of someone on unemployment benefits in Belgium? In Canada under EI (employment insurance) it's about $500 per week (~$2000 CAD per month).

Re: Fired

#308

Post by mhomde »

jghn wrote: post #117
toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

I guess that's the other side of labour laws, firing someone who's been employeed more than six months in Sweden requires talking to the union (if you have one), given a valid reason, if it's "lack of work" they have to offer the position back to you if it changes.

The amount of months's notice you get changes with your age and years of employement as well. Sometimes you have to sack entire departments just to defeat the LIFO policy.

Now I think Sweden's laws can be a bit too strict, companies are deathly afraid to hire the wrong people (after the six month trial period) since they can't get rid of them, and companies should be able to get rid of underperformers, but living in a country where your boss can go Donald Trump on your ass on a whim isn't exactly ideal either...

Re: Fired

#309

Post by markcampbell »

swalberg wrote: post #171
ethagnawl wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, tha…

This is on top of a 46% marginal income tax rate and 12% sales tax. I don't know what the BC plan is like, but in Manitoba if I didn't have any coverage through my employer I'd be paying for almost everything except visiting a doctor or ER. And you're still stuck in a line to see specialists. It's not unheard of to schedule an appointment with a specialist a year out.

Manitoba Pharmacare exists for prescription plans and is income adjusted. Similar story in Ontario with the Trillium drug plan. I'm certain other provinces are similar.

People with true emergent cases are seen quickly. You may not, but it's probably because it's not an emergency.

Re: Fired

#310

Post by tdicola »

johnpowell wrote: post #161
lchengify wrote: post #91

Re: Zach's COBRA question. For those who don't know, COBRA (Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act) is a law passed in 1985 [1] that compels companies to offer "continuing health insurance" to employees that leave the company for any reason other than "gross misconduct". Basically it means that you can pay the company directly for your employer's health plan for a period of time, typically 18 months. The out-…

Just for some perspective here. In 2001 I was working in a wafer fab and quit. On my exit the HR lady asked me about COBRA and if I wanted it. I declined since it was 600 dollars a month. And I was a single 21 year old male with no kids. I only made 9 dollars a hour at the job so asking 600 a month was kinda bonkers.

That $600/month was what the company was paying for your health insurance, not some number they made up. Think of it like you were earning more than $9/hour but some of that money went to pay for your health insurance.
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