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Mental health in software engineering

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#301

Post by david-gpu »

Zenzero wrote: post #268
david-gpu wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing As much as I respect your personal experience, I think you make a mistake in assuming that it is universal. Further, you are also making the mistake of invalidating other people's individual experiences based on your perception of what the a…

I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel I said it was universal in the sense that you're describing it. On the whole I would rate the average software engineer as having a less stressful life than the average doctor. I acknowledge that there are outliers and individual experiences that go against the average. That said, I would argue that you underestimate the number of people in medicine who are burnt out. Many…

>>> I can attest that software engineers have it very very good

> On the whole I would rate the average software engineer as having a less stressful life than the average doctor

Those are very different statements, and I don't even disagree with the second.

Consider the possibility that the software engineers complaining the most about burnout are likely not experiencing the average amount of stress, so your casual dismissal of their suffering is really rather misplaced. Just as an example, a coworker of mine committed suicide, leaving behind his wife and two kids under ten. He didn't have it very very good.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#302

Post by dylnuge »

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder

I don't think it really matters what jobs are "harder". Nothing in the article is making the claim this is unique (or for that matter universal). The author's experience was in engineering management, and that's what they're writing about.

It's relevant to our industry insofar as it's reflective of an experience in the industry. I'm personally a bit cautious around claims of what is harder or easier because they tend to be pointless comparisons mostly used to dismiss valid criticism with whataboutism.

> I'm now 20 years into my career and never once have I come across this attitude. People take sick days all the time for mental health. I feel terribly for this person that they felt like they couldn't but this is far and away the exception rather than the rule.

I have definitely worked at organizations with a tech-bro startup culture where working non-stop (and drinking heavily) were idolized and anyone talking about mental health would have likely gotten a "man up"-esque speech (regardless of their gender, though shockingly these companies are mostly men). I have also worked at places where mental health was nominally respected but, like anything else, substantially more leeway was given to people perceived as high performers. I'm glad you haven't had to encounter anything like that, but I wouldn't even call it uncommon, nonetheless exceptional.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#303

Post by jahewson »

onion2k wrote: post #207
tiznow wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but address…

The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.

Right but you can tell all those people “this idea is literally impossible, the machine cannot do it” and at least some of them will listen to you.

Whereas in, say, government, people can just believe any stupid idea they want for an indefinite period of time.

As you can tell, I’m great with people. :)

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#304

Post by shiroiushi »

onion2k wrote: post #207
tiznow wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but address…

The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.

This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture.

Yes, you really can go into a tech career and avoid talking to people much, much more than other careers. Just stay out of management if you don't like talking to people.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#305

Post by ferociouskite56 »

Glad he quit alcohol as I did at 21. I found out then that marijuana is the best antidepressant and anxiolytic, Xanax second place. But benzos are anticonvulsants with significant withdrawal effects.

I dread having a mandatory talk therapist and am not sure how that helps social anxiety. Free book warns to not trust psychiatrists because you may go in for stress and never be allowed out. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ocxbp8l5uo6anu7us7fjw/quackLa...

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#306

Post by jahewson »

jongjong wrote: post #43
lenerdenator wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phenomenon of showing up at Stanford and telling some 21-year-old that he's Jesus Christ and that you're going to give him millions of dollars is a wen on the American business culture matched only by corporate raiding. It's the nerd version of college football/basketball recruiting.

It's so weird. I started to think that maybe this is intentional. It looks as though investors want to invest only in over-optimistic people who believe that we're living in some kind of utopian paradise; at the same time they avoid investing in anyone who has had so much of a faint whiff of how the sausage gets made. It's like the entire system is desperate to keep optimists optimistic and pessimists pessimistic. Wh…

> they avoid investing in anyone who has had so much of a faint whiff of how the sausage gets made.

Not actually the case. The average Silicon Valley founder is in their 40s. It’s just the young ones that get all the press (because they need it).

Why is it that investors actively seek out starry-eyed individuals?

> Apart from the fact that pessimists are not founding companies, the answer is: narrative. There’s a ready-made place in our society for the hero’s story - the lone individual who (like ourselves) is special and has a unique vision. We have multiple millennia-old religions based off this same narrative. It works. It gets press, it gets followers. Humans naturally take any boring story and fashion it into this shape if they can. It takes the large, confusing, abstract or confusing and makes it personal.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#307

Post by Phiwise_ »

fnordian_slip wrote: post #95
albert_e wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one of the big companies recently replaced "sick leave" (only you can be sick to avail this, not a family member you care for) with "wellbeing leave" (you dont feel up to a day at work, take the day off - no questions asked) and doubled them from 5 days a year to 10 days a year. I am usually cynical about big corporates and their people policies, but this is one I can applaud.

5 vs 10 days is still ridiculous imho. I've just read an overview about the us system [0], and it does seem rather absurd, when you're looking at it from a German perspective. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_leave

I'm waiting patiently for the day when I encounter the first European on an American website who understands that Europe sees the American work standard as absurdly high, that on the other hand Americans see the European wealth standard as absurdly low, and uses this information to not derail working conditions discussions with suggestions that violate the premise of sacrificing a third of their income for the last deminishing returns of the European system [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#308

Post by oooyay »

earthling8118 wrote: post #282
sandworm101 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. We have a procedure. Such people would be reminded of the various mental health services we have. If they don't touch base themselves, someone will touch base with them. That might be a padre or more likely a call from a mental health nurse. Those people would then authorize them staying home, or not, based on medical judgement. We don't allow people to switch off, especially when they might have access…

Quite frankly, this is why I'm glad to no longer be part of such an organization. This is as close as you can toe the line of actually causing harm while still making it look beneficial.

Yeah, I agree. Somehow what they described is actually a bar or two worse than what I experienced at an infantry support unit. I'd like to be able to say that the DOD is capable of change, but the VA has been telling them about the long tail effects of "procedures" and decisions like this for decades at this point and not a thing has changed.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#309

Post by strken »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #285
makk wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most deadlines were entirely arbitrary Yes. As are most tasks, in my experience. Looking back on your almost 30 years, what percent of tasks could have been skipped entirely and, in the long run, it wouldn't have mattered? For me, it's easily >50% ... catch me on a grumpy day and I'd say it's closer to 90%.

Honestly, most companies and projects fail completely. In my 25ish year career I can only think of a handful of lines of code that I've written that are still in production (or that I think might still be in production) and only a few employers that still exist. When you pan out far enough it all seems a bit silly.

I think this is confusing code with output. If you work for a company that builds medical software, then your output is something like quality-adjusted life years for patients and has nothing to do with the code you incidentally use to get there.

Taking the view that none of the software you wrote is still running is a bit like an automotive engineer who thinks none of the car models she worked on at the start of her career are still in production. Well, no, they're not: but does that matter? Millions of kids got driven to school by cars she helped design.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#310

Post by filleduchaos »

krimskrams wrote: post #296
nox101 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

What do you think about the other side of the video game industry where games are distributed digitally? Most PC games nowadays are distributed this way and even consoles are moving in this direction too. There is so much more to it than just aligning marketing and distribution with the development cycle. Time and time again, news breaks out about terrible working conditions and crunch culture being so ingrained and…

> What do you think about the other side of the video game industry where games are distributed digitally?

As someone that has done work for indie studios, you very much still have to align marketing and distribution with the development cycle with online marketplaces. Shelf-space and shelf-life aren't any less real because they are virtual - if anything, they're scarcer resources. Anyone who's actually sold things online can attest to this; customers' patience and attention spans are horrendously short. Not making it into the first page of results can be a straight-up death sentence for a project.

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