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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#301

Post by dagw »

Hamuko wrote: post #272
teekert wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry Cavill is vocal (but kind and respecting) and an "ideologically pure" geek, in the sense that he seems to try and change scripts of series and movies he plays in, where they overlap with his nerdiness, ie [0], but there are more references. Of course, this is true in so far as geekiness can be seen as an ideology, if so, Cavill is pretty pure and vocal, but also just a great guy it seems. Now he’s going for a W…

I thought that the rumours were that other people in the production of The Witcher show were not fans of Cavill trying to change the scripts?

Basically Cavill wanted the show to closely follow the books (books he was a huge fan of), and the show runners wanted to make changes to the stories and go in a different direction. This lead to a lot of arguments, and eventually Cavill being replaced.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#302

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #255
Nanana909 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the “realities of long term software development”. But I think I believe there is a fundamental difference between the standard realities on a successful enterprise project and the language itself . That is, the latter needs to balance the needs of a much, much wider array of customers (all rust compiler users) versus the former with a more specific target user base. This introduces different requ…

If you can't resolve that conflict of interest then you have absolutely no business being near the seats of power for a project such as Rust. Rust needs to be perceived as a safe bet, not as the next Ruby, if it is to achieve the goals that have been put forward by those that advocated for the language's adoption.

[deleted]

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#303

Post by esarbe »

dale_glass wrote: post #283
esarbe wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good if you would not repeat unsubstantiated rumors. No credible allegation have brought forward against Stallman's behavior regarding women. It's all hearsay and we should avoid hearsay and rumors.

I don't mean to imply he committed a crime. I'm saying that he's odd and offputting to many people, which is hardly news. And while I've not seen him recently in person, everything I've read firmly indicate that he's very stuck in the past and his manners are not up to modern standards.

Sure, no harm done. Stallman is odd, no argument about that.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#304

Post by torstenvl »

hurril wrote: post #170
tialaramex wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Not really. How do you imagine this could work if it was true? It's a great excuse if you're looking to throw your weight around of course. Oh the poor Disney corporation had to sue that primary school for a bajillion dollars, or else they would lose their trademark. Does that sort of thing even pass the sniff test for you? And it works out great for lawyers too. Ins…

Are you asking me to defend Disney's actions because I side with Rust at this point? I think that it is fair that someone defends their name and brand and I definitely wish that you be permitted to do so, so that someone is unable to be too untoward to your business.

You keep making the claim that trademark enforcement is about protection against bad actors, but that is emphatically false here. Rust's trademark policy is extremely restrictive, to the point that Rust the language can only be considered proprietary. If you haven't read it, it's here: https://foundation.rust-lang.org/policies/logo-policy-and-me...

They aren't using trademark to defend against malicious actors. They're using trademark to segregate and divide the Rust community into those who are "officially part of the Rust community" (their words) and those who aren't.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#305

Post by Xenoamorphous »

fluoridation wrote: post #295
Xenoamorphous wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ffmpeg vs libav is one case where I think the hostile fork ended up working well.

libav was the hostile fork, not FFmpeg. Someone removed write permissions from key contributors (or contributor. I forget) and just about everyone sided with those contributors, thus the instigators were forced to rename their project. The development effort stayed on FFmpeg, even as the libav people tried porting back the changes. Eventually libav passed into irrelevance as it failed to acquire mindshare and distrib…

It's been a while since I read the story but I believe it did prompt some changes in ffmpeg management, that's why I was saying it was a hostile fork success story.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#306

Post by [deleted] »

grt_thr wrote: post #10
tirpen wrote: post #3

Well, people fork languages and libraries all the time. Does this fork have a significant amount of support? By whom? Or why is this news worthy?

Rust has been rather monolithic. There is no such thing as a rust spec, just whatever the rust compiler does. This is a good first step to making it into a language people work in rather than just blog about.

[deleted]

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#307

Post by globular-toast »

fermigier wrote: post #245
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

I met Stallman for the first time in ~1993-1995, in Paris. He was talking about the threat of copyright on user interfaces (the infamous "thrash bin" lawsuit) and (but less so) on software patents, speaking in the name of the League for Programming Freedom[1] (LPF) that he was leading at the time. So this was a talk explicitly about programming freedom (and against the risk posed by excessive IP regulations), NOT abo…

> Besides his anger management issues, I think that he made a major mistake in focussing on free software as a goal in itself, and not on programming freedom, which could have rallied many more supporters.

Programming freedom might have been easier, but I think free software is a more laudable goal. Programmers possess exceptional skills and it's mostly our choice to use and produce free software, or not. One of Stallman's essential tenets is that non-free software gives programmers power over the users. Giving programmers more freedom only serves to strengthen this power. Free software is supposed to give everybody (or nobody) this power.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#308

Post by cookieperson »

akkad33 wrote: post #233
cookieperson wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's just people doing what they want with OSS. The majority of the mindshare is still in one place. It looks more like a protest and or a hobby project then anything else.

Wasn't Rust also started as a hobby project?

Yep! And that's why I say go for it. Worst comes to worst some smart kids get great experience writing cool software.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#309

Post by jen20 »

insanitybit wrote: post #249
porcoda wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to. Same. I want to use it because technically it's the right choice for a few projects, but when I talk to people in my organization I still label it as "too immature and volatile to adopt today, but worth watching". I was hoping the adoption by Linux and Microsoft would be the forcing factor to stabilize it, but the governan…

Rust is pretty stable and clearly past the point of being immature and volatile. A few issues that the internet has blown up lately doesn't change that.

Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that.

[1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#310

Post by arp242 »

jacquesm wrote: post #265
arp242 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about effective advocacy. Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. And from an advocacy position, ideological purity almost never works. An advocacy organisation like the FSF should be pragmatically "climbing the ladder" one step at a time, not insisting on an instantaneous revolution. You might as well advocate for the moon to be painted blue: it's just…

> Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. Stallman has been right more often then wrong and has made his points forcefully, consistent and without compromise over decades . He's backed up his words with his deeds, has contributed an incredible amount of software and has been a very important factor in jumpstarting the free software movement. He provided a fr…

Someone who doesn't alienate a significant part of the community would be a good start (which all occurred long before the whole business with the Minsky comments). That he jump-started things or "is right" isn't actually all that important for effective advocacy; if I were to start my reply with "you asshole!" then you're not very likely to listen to what I have to say. To be honest I don't understand how people fail to understand there's a difference between "being right" and "being someone people listen to".
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