Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines • Hacker News Board

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#301

Post by anextio » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

thenaturalist wrote: post #178

dkarras wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That... doesn't make sense. You WILL get exposed to this virus. Worst case, the virus will be able to do the same and more without any prior training for your immune system. If you said "I'll try not to get covid" I'd say "Impossible but godspeed" at least your logic would be sound.

Absolutely this. What are your "smartest" friends saying about the billions of dollars invested and spent by other really smart individuals in developing these vaccines in the first place? I bet world class biologists and investors aren't doing it for the fun. PS: If anyone is curious about the "real thing", I'd highly recommend you look up hospital documentaries on COVID IC units. There is one - unfortunately German…

This is a selection bias toward Covid patients who had to be hospitalized. Most Covid cases are mild and patients recover at home. The “extent of what you have to deal with” varies considerably.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#302

Post by trhway » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

eganist wrote: post #298

trhway wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the OP employing manipulative communication. > ... it's an effort at highlighting the manipulation—with references—so that vulnerable readers are informed and inoculated against it. as i've already shown ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27467720 ) you invented the "manipulation", ie. you generated misinformation, and you're clearly acknowledging here that you're using that misinformation in order to affect "vu…

> as i already pointed out you invented the "manipulation", ie. you generated misinformation, and you're clearly acknowledge here that you're using that misinformation in order to affect "vulnerable readers", ie. for propaganda purposes. I was clear in providing citations. At this point, you need to provide your own backing for all the other vaccines you've supported, such as the flu vaccine, MMR, etc. if you want to…

you've got caught generating misinformation, and now you're clearly deflecting.

>I was clear in providing citations.

All the citations/links you brought in were to build a house of cards of your pet narrative on top of a factually wrong false statement you generated about me out of nothing. You generated that false statement in order to be able to apply those citations. Without that foundational false statement your citations didn't make sense.

Now, once you've got caught (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27467720) by me showing that you just casually generated that misinformation, you're trying to drown that fact under the pile of the long winded meaningless word-abouts like this gem here:

>Being broadly anti-covid-vaccine essentially acknowledges holding generalized anti-vaccine opinions since the majority of vaccines on the market make use of legacy manufacturing techniques.

It is a classic device of propaganda - equating risk-benefit analysis unfavorable in a specific narrow situation (a healthy very low risk group in this case) with blanket non-acceptance ("broadly anti-covid-vaccine"). Like back in the USSR - "You don't like the absence of hot water?! You're anti-Soviet!" It is strange that you didn't notice that propaganda device description among your "manipulation" describing links.

It is pretty clear that you're trying to paint me, against the already demonstrated facts, as an anti-vaxxer in order to undermine whatever i was saying. I think you'll be able to find on your own a link describing that fallacy.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#303

Post by swiley » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

breadzeppelin__ wrote: post #89

splithalf wrote: post #44

We’ve known this for a month or so. The bottom line is that experts still recommend getting the vaccine.

meanwhile the many experts who don't recommend it are widely and very vocally shunned as 'science deniers'. Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual experts on both sides of the argument without people being upset about it.

Not only shunned, curated social media often automatically silences them.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#304

Post by ds206 » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

0-_-0 wrote: post #262

eganist wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, reading the discussion/conclusion via google translate, this seems to be a study on metabolism of the vaccine? Open to being fact-checked, but this doesn't seem related. In any case, the only statement I found on health effects in the discussion/conclusion was "No toxic findings indicating liver damage were found in the rat repeated-dose toxicity test ( M2.6.6.3 )." but I don't speak Japanese and I'm sure usi…

What I belive this might show (still trying to figure this out) is how the lipid nanoparticles from the vaccine are distributed in the body. Page 7 shows particularly high concentration in the ovaries for example. I think the idea of the vaccine should be that the intramuscular injection stays in the muscle and the spike proteins don't get into your blood, but this was never actually directly verified. What this stud…

Bret Weinstein (evolutionary biologist), Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA tech), and Steve Kirsch (researching adverse reactions to covid vaccines) talked about this today on Bret's YouTube channel. It's somewhere between the middle and the end of the stream iirc.

I highly recommend watching the whole stream.

https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#305

Post by Talanes » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

eganist wrote: post #298

trhway wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the OP employing manipulative communication. > ... it's an effort at highlighting the manipulation—with references—so that vulnerable readers are informed and inoculated against it. as i've already shown ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27467720 ) you invented the "manipulation", ie. you generated misinformation, and you're clearly acknowledging here that you're using that misinformation in order to affect "vu…

> as i already pointed out you invented the "manipulation", ie. you generated misinformation, and you're clearly acknowledge here that you're using that misinformation in order to affect "vulnerable readers", ie. for propaganda purposes. I was clear in providing citations. At this point, you need to provide your own backing for all the other vaccines you've supported, such as the flu vaccine, MMR, etc. if you want to…

>Being broadly anti-covid-vaccine essentially acknowledges holding generalized anti-vaccine opinions since the majority of vaccines on the market make use of legacy manufacturing techniques.

You're assuming everyone has the same knowledge base as you and then inferring their decision making process from that. More likely is that people have formed broad opinions about a new event based on scattered information. That's the sort of information that would be helpful to provide, not Wikipedia pages to generalized propaganda techniques.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#306

Post by djmips » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #112

mrfusion wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVID induced myocarditis has been thoroughly disproven: https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-strai...

Anecdotal or not, there have been plenty of otherwise healthy young people reporting everything from palpitations, chest pain to arrhythmia https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/search?q=myocarditi... [1] [1] /r/CovidVaccinated https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/

While concerning, it's difficult to look at anecdata and be able to come to a conclusion. Like in my office, when someone declared that someone stole their phone. Suddenly every misplaced item going forward was reported stolen. So not sure if people are actually having a problem or if they are just 'normal' events that are now attributed to the vaccine.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#307

Post by jb775 » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

pfg wrote: post #145

b0tzzzzzzman wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's all look at statistics and not recognize these are real people who are developing heart damage from 'safe' vaccines.

A 0.002% risk of experiencing myocarditis due to the vaccine seems a better deal than catching COVID, which brings a ~0.3% risk of experiencing (symptomatic) myocarditis in a (to my non-expert understanding) similar demographic[1]. Many experts assume COVID will become endemic, so this is not a theoretical risk. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...

You aren't factoring in the likely substantial underreporting of this, the fact that this could be a symptomless issue until it isn't (i.e. young athletes suddenly having fatal heart failure), the fact that many people just got the vaccine, the possibility that the onset of this takes longer than they think, the low chance of catching covid in the first place, or the fact that the vaccine doesn't even guarantee protection against covid. Not to mention unknown unknowns.

I'm not anti-vaccines, I'm anti this experimental & rushed vaccine. Buy hey let's create vaccine passports and try to force everyone to get it because of politics.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#308

Post by hourislate » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

drcross wrote: post #161

EMM_386 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human heart has a lot of ACE2 receptors, which is what Covid binds to. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/ I wonder if you can get myocarditits both from exposure and the vaccine. Covid is in your heart tissue, triggering an immune response. When you get the vaccine, your immune system is going to ramp up even further to deal with this Covid in your heart. This would only affect people who had p…

>which is what Covid binds to. You mean the SARS-2 spike protein binds to the ACE receptors. mRNA vaccines create the spike protein so it's going to work in exactly the same way as natural infection. Recent research from Japan is showing that the spike protein from vaccination is not staying at the injection site it can get into the blood stream (and causes blood clots as are widely reported), crossing the blood brai…

You're not wrong, there have been some cases where Astra and JJ caused some blood clotting. From what I read somewhere (can't find the link), the thought is that spreading out the two shots might be helpful. I thought it was Canada that was considering doing this but might be wrong. They were thinking of giving the first shot and then waiting 2 months too give the second shot to younger people. I wish I could find the article.

I got the 2nd shot of Pfizer recently (14 days apart) and considering the first shot did nothing, the second shot wiped me out for 24 hours. I wasn't sick just real tired and had a terrible headache. Just sat around all day and had to take it easy. I was thinking if the spike protein was enough to do this to me, I can imagine having to deal with the viral load on top of it and I'm healthy and consider myself fit. So if you catch Covid you're going to deal with both the spike protein and the virus all at once. Better deal with one at a time and get the vaccine so if you do catch the virus at least your body has fought half the battle and can deal with it instead of not knowing what to do while the Viral load goes crazy. I was one of those folks who felt like I could handle it, my wife convinced me to get the shot and I'm glad I did.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#309

Post by eganist » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

Talanes wrote: post #305

eganist wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as i already pointed out you invented the "manipulation", ie. you generated misinformation, and you're clearly acknowledge here that you're using that misinformation in order to affect "vulnerable readers", ie. for propaganda purposes. I was clear in providing citations. At this point, you need to provide your own backing for all the other vaccines you've supported, such as the flu vaccine, MMR, etc. if you want to…

>Being broadly anti-covid-vaccine essentially acknowledges holding generalized anti-vaccine opinions since the majority of vaccines on the market make use of legacy manufacturing techniques. You're assuming everyone has the same knowledge base as you and then inferring their decision making process from that. More likely is that people have formed broad opinions about a new event based on scattered information. That'…

> You're assuming everyone has the same knowledge base as you and then inferring their decision making process from that. More likely is that people have formed broad opinions about a new event based on scattered information. That's the sort of information that would be helpful to provide, not Wikipedia pages to generalized propaganda techniques.

Hey, thanks for that. This helped me rethink and understand the entire conversation.

I'm not sure how much more effective new information or facts would be either, in hindsight, but it did remind me of an old publication (not research, I should add) discussing the use of personal narratives and stories to fight vaccine misinformation: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.4161/hv.24828

Possibly effective against other forms of misinformation too. Sadly, I'm too buried in the facts and not enough of a storyteller to be effective here.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#310

Post by psychomugs » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

Adding my anecdata: I’m a male in my mid-20’s, am decently fit with a slower-than-average heart rate, and have a benign congenital heart condition. First shot was fine apart from a sore arm, second shot forced me to take a day off. Smooth sailing since then, but occasionally do notice palpitations, which I chalk up to stress, but I’d be lying if I said this didn’t make me a bit weary.