Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#301

Post by jtsiskin » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

legutierr wrote: post #229

jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

This explanation makes the most sense to me, but there is something that you are leaving out. Not only is Amazon a marketplace, but it is THE marketplace. Amazon has an effective monopoly on small-seller logistics and marketplace services in the United States (and many other places), soup-to-nuts. If you are anything other than a massive corporation, any manufacturer that chooses not to sell through Amazon and utiliz…

I think Shopify’s massive success means this likely isn’t this extreme

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#302

Post by nataz » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc).

There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms.

I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is legal (def will vary widely between the eu and us markets), but it is another interesting example of how doing something at scale can be perceived as fundamentally different then when it's done in a smaller way (especially as it pertains to privacy).

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#303

Post by dehrmann » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

jasallen wrote: post #205

Gasparila wrote: post #175

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

> But Amazon is also a marketplace

Meanwhile, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276

"Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court"

It seems both regulators and Amazon want whether or not it's a marketplace to go both ways whenever it's convenient.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#304

Post by josefx » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

niyikiza wrote: post #196

spaceribs wrote: post #2

Amazon should be nationalized. All these 3rd party companies want is a "farmers market", a stall to sell their wares. Give them the municipal software infrastructure they need to do so and maintain it as a public good.

Whenever someone suggests that something be nationalized, I ask myself "Why not create a public version of it?". If the answer is "it cannot compete with the private ones", maybe that's why running it privately is necessary.

Just look at how well this works out for every town trying to set up its own broadband when Comcast and others fail to invest. Lawsuits raining down for every possible reason, shared public resources blocked for months, misinformation campaigns to convince people that public broadband is a waste of their money and anyone involved in it should be kicked from their office.

Its like competing in a five hundred meter sprint if the winner of the last twenty races had a shotgun. His time sucks, but he doesn't need to actually run as long as nobody else makes it to the finishing line.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#305

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #193

Gasparila wrote: post #175

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

> To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse only seems worse because amazon is so big, and so monopolistic, that a lot of people hold them to different standards. It's the same idea that people expect a rich person to pay more taxes, or contribute more philothropically.

I know man, this idea that people in power have more responsebility that a random homeless person, socialism!

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#306

Post by awillen » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #291

awillen wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you've described the business models, but so what? In both cases, they still use the sales data available to them to create and sell their own products at the expense of third party sellers. In Amazon's case, that means diverting customers away from third party listings to their own. In Costco's case, that means making fewer purchases from third party sellers because the amount of shelf space available decrease…

> relationship that they have with third party sellers There are no third party sellers at Costco, it’s only Costco.

Costco buys products from third party sellers. That is a relationship with third party sellers.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#307

Post by colejohnson66 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #291

awillen wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you've described the business models, but so what? In both cases, they still use the sales data available to them to create and sell their own products at the expense of third party sellers. In Amazon's case, that means diverting customers away from third party listings to their own. In Costco's case, that means making fewer purchases from third party sellers because the amount of shelf space available decrease…

> relationship that they have with third party sellers There are no third party sellers at Costco, it’s only Costco.

Not always true. Usually, Costco/Target/Walmart/etc. pay for it before it sells, but it’s not always like that. “Vendor” products like Frito Lay, Bimbo, etc. are sometimes given the ability to just put product on the floor at no cost to the retailer. When it sells, the retailer will send money to the vendor.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#308

Post by legutierr » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #255

legutierr wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This explanation makes the most sense to me, but there is something that you are leaving out. Not only is Amazon a marketplace, but it is THE marketplace. Amazon has an effective monopoly on small-seller logistics and marketplace services in the United States (and many other places), soup-to-nuts. If you are anything other than a massive corporation, any manufacturer that chooses not to sell through Amazon and utiliz…

This just isn't really true. It depends on what type of product you're selling, but there are a huge number of independent ecommerce stores that do extremely well. I sell dog treat mix (coopersdogtreats.com) - I do much better both in terms of margins and overall sales on my own website (with traffic coming primarily via paid FB ads) than on Amazon. That's not even including other huge marketplaces like walmart.com,…

I'm happy to read what you are saying, and stand corrected.

I wonder, though. Do you think your experience is typical?

Am I wrong to think that your product is more niche and premium than the most products that are sold via the Amazon marketplace? Do you think that you might get more repeat business than most products sold on Amazon?

It's been a while since I've looked into pricing for FB ads, but my sense is that a product with more narrow margins and less potential for repeat business could find it difficult to attract customers via advertising without increasing prices beyond what could be found on Amazon for competing products.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#309

Post by addicted » Mon, May 03, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony.

Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#310

Post by rualca » Mon, May 03, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

diab0lic wrote: post #228

rualca wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a math equation you run through a computer and get a legal result out the other end. Not really. This has zero to do with math. At all. We have a buyer and we have a seller, both the buyer and the seller wish to perform a transaction, but then we have a regulator which arbitrarily wants to force them not to execute said transaction because of reasons. And my question is terribly simple: to those who want t…

> No math, no numbers. I’m asking a very simple question: what then? The comment you replied to answered your question. The transaction goes through, absolutely no additional regulation or control comes into play at the transaction level. NOTE: I am not supporting this position, or opposing it. I’m just stating what the gp post said.

> The comment you replied to answered your question.

It really didn't, instead it weaseled out by putting up a strawman that pretends to put a loophole in a straight-forward and very clear way.

In fact, it's blatantly clear by itself the fact that no one proposed a single idea or suggestion about how to enforce that mysterious 10%. No explanation was given on the impact on customers, and how the sellers would be forced to not go beyond that 10%. Why is that? Is the idea undefendable?