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California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

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Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#301

Post by pjc50 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #149

I have yet to see a cogent validation of the total lives saved by lockdown when considering all other health impacts such as suicide rates from isolation, heart disease/stroke/diabetes from extra sedentary lifestyle etc. not to mention the suicide by fentanyl in a subsequent economic recession/depression. Any aware of such an analysis?

It all depends on how the return to normalcy happens and how much support is present. Things like the fentanyl epidemic were already present and ignored; the opportunity is here to take it into account during the recovery. Hopefully some of the states will do that and make money available.

The pandemic is eroding the idea that sickness and poverty are moral failings. It that sticks the benefits will be huge.

Oh, and there has been the first month without a school shooting since 2002. Another epidemic controlled by staying at home.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#302

Post by szatkus »

TheNewAndy wrote: post #100
zachkatz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ELI5 interpretation: “Since good leadership is probably not going to come from the President, we’re going to create our own “mini-country” and provide good leadership within it.”

Instead of "mini-country", I would call just call it a group of united states.

Or a commonwealth.

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/United_States_of_America#Com...

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#303

Post by throwaway_USD »

RandomTisk wrote: post #38
danhak wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, he wanted to dodge responsibility for the unpleasant job of shutting things down. Now he wants to enjoy positive publicity for opening things back up.

He wanted to shut down travel from China in January, something he got reamed for politically by the media and the left. Damned if you do and all that.

If you have watched any of the daily Coronavirus Task Force Press Briefings you will no doubt have heard Trump championing "If I didn’t do that, we would’ve had hundreds of thousands more people dying"...

To my understanding the ban only stopped direct flights from China. In other words flights to china were still able to travel everywhere else in the World and then from those layovers the Chinese were still able to fly into the US indirectly.

The virus made its way to US anyway and when it got out of hand the healthcare system was overwhelmed, the economy shutdown, supply chains broke down, we reached essentially 20% unemployment overnight...so I am not sure how his decision saved lives, it seems to me, his travel ban only delayed the virus...so assuming the travel ban wasn't put in place it seems to me the virus would have just been on our radar sooner and we would have done the same poor reactive responses. In other words, from the time of the ban in January to Trumps "15 days to slow the spread" how many test kits were ordered? How many N95 masks were ordered? How many ventilators? How much PPE? What did Trump do to prepare for the virus and save lives beyond travel bans, because it seems our healthcare systems were not prepared/supplied nor was FEMA prepared and mobilized until March.

Can you explain how his ban saved lives as opposed to delayed the virus?

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#304

Post by throwaway_USD »

johncearls wrote: post #154
roywiggins wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He let who knows how many Americans back in from China without testing or quarantining them. Not much of a travel ban.

Quarantining is a fancy word for arrest, with zero cause. There were no "tests" at the time. And finally, thankfully, it is illegal to refuse an American citizen entry to the United States.

Federal Law

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

CDC’s Role

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

As part of its federal authority, CDC routinely monitors persons arriving at U.S. land border crossings and passengers and crew arriving at U.S. ports of entry for signs or symptoms of communicable diseases.

When alerted about an ill passenger or crew member by the pilot of a plane or captain of a ship, CDC may detain passengers and crew as necessary to investigate whether the cause of the illness on board is a communicable disease.

State, Local, and Tribal Law

States have police power functions to protect the health, safety, and welfare of persons within their borders. To control the spread of disease within their borders, states have laws to enforce the use of isolation and quarantine. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#305

Post by blaser-waffle »

jcranmer wrote: post #202
elliekelly wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governor Baker is a Republican and Trump is big on “loyalty” and deference. Since the pact is a way for the Governors to collectively let Trump know who will actually be “restarting” the states I would guess the short delay in Massachusetts joining was so Baker could sort out the politics ahead of time with DC.

Baker (and Hogan, for that matter) are very popular Republican governors in pretty deep blue states. They haven't been big on kissing Trump's ass, both before and during this crisis.

Yeah MA has a habit of that, e.g. Mitt Romney, who is also vocally critical of the POTUS.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#306

Post by blaser-waffle »

xref wrote: post #294
kelnos wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add "not allowed to pump your own gas" to the list of "things that are completely unnecessary and stupid that have been removed because of COVID-19 and never need to come back".

It’s a job creation/protection play, like grocery stores where the union won’t allow self-checkout. No idea if the law is achieving its goals or if it just exists because of historical inertia now, but that’s why it exists.

Where are there checkout clerk unions blocking self-check out? Not saying it's impossible, but I've lived in WA, CA, VA, DC, TX, and NY, plus 1.5 years in Australia, and going on 6 years in Canada and have consistently seen self check-out everywhere.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#307

Post by blaser-waffle »

yellowapple wrote: post #262
mrfusion wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren’t trained to operate a gas pump. That’s what they told me last time I visited Oregon.

For all they know I could be a Certified Petrol Pump Master™.

Presumably the different colored belts (Pump Master Black Belt, etc.) let you pump different grades -- or diesel.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#308

Post by blaser-waffle »

triceratops wrote: post #287
winter_blue wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans might claim to support state's rights, but they certainly aren't principled consistent supporters of it. Just take a drug legalization. Many Republicans have been vehemently opposed to it. Take a look at the Supreme Court decision Gonzalez v. Raich , where Steve Scalia no less, wrote that the feds could interfere with your growing some plants inside your own home for your own personal use. Remember that t…

> Remember that the "states rights" movement started as a response to federal action to end segregation. It's way older and more sinister than that. States' rights was first used to justify the continuation and expansion of the institution of slavery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_...

States Rights go back to even before that, to the original Articles of Confederation and Constitution. Until the US Constitution was ratified the behavior of the union was closer to the EU than the current US government, and the bigger, more powerful states (NY, VA) didn't like giving up their sovereignty.

States Rights was dug up before the Civil War as a continuation of that argument, this time in the context of slavery.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#309

Post by jeffdavis »

_opc6 wrote: post #268
jeffdavis wrote: post #249

I'm a little disturbed that I feel like the country has been tearing apart for a while. There is a major political bifurcation, and now pacts between states. Right now the pacts are for the pandemic, but what else might these coalitions be used for in the future? I'm not saying that they'll be used for some nafarious purpose, but the fact that they are like-minded politically makes it more likely to deepen the divide…

Because, Conservatives have completely lost their minds. If they want to commit to a suicide run to try and sustain the market then competent states have the imperative to not follow them into the abyss. You have to remember, each state is tasked with the welfare of their citizenry, not the furtherance of the political ambitions of a federal administrator.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying "good riddance, let's just split the country in a few pieces and get it over with"? Or do you see some path toward unifying the two factions again?

I guess you could reasonably say that groups with different political allegiances should just split up. But what's weird about that to me is it's basically like the states' rights platform, sans Constitution.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#310

Post by arh68 »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #306
xref wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a job creation/protection play, like grocery stores where the union won’t allow self-checkout. No idea if the law is achieving its goals or if it just exists because of historical inertia now, but that’s why it exists.

Where are there checkout clerk unions blocking self-check out? Not saying it's impossible, but I've lived in WA, CA, VA, DC, TX, and NY, plus 1.5 years in Australia, and going on 6 years in Canada and have consistently seen self check-out everywhere.

Oregon, yet again?

https://katu.com/news/local/initiative-looks-to-limit-number...

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