California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact • Hacker News Board

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#131

Post by mrfusion » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #73

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

As someone who lives in one of these states, I'm nonplussed at the announcement. It doesn't really seem to say anything concrete that I can tell. "We've agreed that we will use metrics...we are still deciding what these metrics will be." I thought the Stay Home, Stay Healthy order (in Washington state) wasn't unreasonable and wasn't just political babble, but I don't really know what to make of this piece. Anyone wan…

My brother lives in Oregon. He was complaining to me the other day that Oregon's requirement that you are not allowed to pump your own gas is an obvious COVID transmission vector. To get gas in Oregon, he follows these steps: 1.) pull up to gas station 2.) Roll down window to hand attendant (who isn't wearing a mask, nor is required to) his debit card. 3.) Get card back from attendant. 4.) Sanitize the debit card 5.)…

People aren’t trained to operate a gas pump. That’s what they told me last time I visited Oregon.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#132

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #110

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If only we had some sort of united group of all the States, where the response could be coordinated and centralized for maximum effectiveness. We do! It's called the United States government. I'll be letting the president know you're interested in him taking over and using his own ideas, instead of this one you seem to be particularly fond of. Or, if that idea is slightly terrifying for you, perhaps it's a better i…

You have no idea how crazy you sound as a European lol, the most straightforward way to put it is you're using an anonymous account on a website to dunk on someone in the comments section for implying they may care about avoiding infection during a pandemic

I have no idea how that's the conclusion you drew from GP, can you elaborate?

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#133

Post by TheGrim-888 » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

This comment thread is one long chain of "the federal government has failed us", "Trump has failed us", etc.

Can one of you actually provide some rationale for why you think that? Do you just have no context on the State/Fed divide? Do you think that because everybody else is saying that, or because mass media is saying that, but don't actually have any facts to back it up?

Seriously, what do you expect Trump to do? What would you have him do? He didn't sneak into CDC labs and botch the first round of tests. He can't just snap his fingers and will millions of pounds of PPE into existence, he's not even the person actually coordinating any of this stuff and trying to get things done, he's just a figurehead.

If Trump did try to go to any greater lengths, the House would just scream that he was abusing his powers and try to Impeach him again.

Please explain your reasoning, I'm getting so tired of it, I'm convinced it's just partisan-driven mass hysteria combined with mass propaganda at this point. Don't like me to opinion pieces of somebody giving their opinion about how horrible Trump is. Link me to data, and tell me facts about what you would want him to do differently.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#134

Post by tathougies » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

zachkatz wrote: post #33

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

As someone who lives in one of these states, I'm nonplussed at the announcement. It doesn't really seem to say anything concrete that I can tell. "We've agreed that we will use metrics...we are still deciding what these metrics will be." I thought the Stay Home, Stay Healthy order (in Washington state) wasn't unreasonable and wasn't just political babble, but I don't really know what to make of this piece. Anyone wan…

My ELI5 interpretation: “Since good leadership is probably not going to come from the President, we’re going to create our own “mini-country” and provide good leadership within it.”

You mean a 'mini-alliance' right? Because the 10th amendment has made the states 'mini-countries' since 1787.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#135

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

yingw787 wrote: post #76

spankalee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fear that tomorrow Why fear? This is my dream! The Senate is irreparably broken. There is no conceivable way that it can become more fairly representative of the people without a breakup of the United States. The smaller less populous states aren't going to just give up their outsized power voluntarily. California is suffering the most due to the Senate's structural unfairness, and it has the most to gain from su…

Dude...if we're talking about secession, we're talking about civil war. In a country with the second most nuclear weapons in the world. With a federal government already looking to adversaries for cooperation. You're talking nuclear missiles or chemical weapons fired against San Francisco, Los Angeles, or Seattle from land-based silos in the Dakotas, or mutinies aboard our SSBNs, or Russian troops landing en masse in…

> You're talking nuclear missiles or chemical weapons fired against San Francisco, Los Angeles, or Seattle from land-based silos in the Dakotas.

This is pretty unlikely, if only because the fallout from nuclear weapons launched at the West Coast will blow back over the rest of the country, including over the regions that launch the missiles themselves. There's a reason short-range and battlefield nukes were never used in anger and it has nothing to do with morals.

The rest of your point stands. From a global perspective, a break-up of the U.S. is a very bad thing. Aside from the potential civil war here, it also means open-season on any countries that are basically U.S. protectorates (Taiwan, Japan, Israel, and much of Europe are toast); it hands global leadership over to China; it means financial chaos; and it could result in famines and food instability throughout the world (the U.S. is a major food exporter).

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#136

Post by ummwhat » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

catchingsun wrote: post #68

mullingitover wrote: post #14

This is great, and it's a big chunk of population, but I keep feeling like we could do better. For example, these three States could do a great job, but there's nothing stopping a bunch of the other States from bungling it (like, say, ignoring health experts and exempting certain groups from mass gathering restrictions). Then those States end up exporting infectious individuals into the States which are doing things…

If other states don't do a good enough job at controlling their outbreaks, it is maybe, potentially legal to close our borders to residents from those states in order to control spread. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Coronavirus-FAQ-...

I'm fairly certain that Constitutional speaking "interstate commerce" can only be regulated by the federal government. The free movement of people may not be commerce per se, but it is inextricably linked.

In realpolitik terms, I doubt the federal government can stop this. What are they going to do? Send the army to force states to accept potentially infected people? That's basically an order to go kill your countrymen. I'd hope, given such an order, much of the military would defect.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#137

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #81

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

As someone who lives in one of these states, I'm nonplussed at the announcement. It doesn't really seem to say anything concrete that I can tell. "We've agreed that we will use metrics...we are still deciding what these metrics will be." I thought the Stay Home, Stay Healthy order (in Washington state) wasn't unreasonable and wasn't just political babble, but I don't really know what to make of this piece. Anyone wan…

> nonplussed It seems nonplussed has two, almost contradictory definitions: 1. (of a person) surprised and confused so much that they are unsure how to react. 2. (of a person) not disconcerted; unperturbed. The latter is an "informal" definition. This seems to be the process by which the word awful switched from meaning awe-inspiring to the opposite.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonplussed

unsure about what to say, think, or do : perplexed

chiefly US : not bothered, surprised, or impressed by something

I'm an American. "Not impressed" is the closest thing I am seeing to what I was trying to convey. Unmoved might be a good substitute word in this case.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#138

Post by redis_mlc » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

> Protecting the general public by ensuring any successful lifting of interventions includes the development of a system for testing, tracking and isolating. The states will work together to share best practices.

If there is a reasonable expectation of that happening in the next couple of weeks, then ok. If this is just "hope", then we should end the lockdown and let the flu run its course, like every year.

The overall mortality rate is about 2%, which may be unavoidable in the US even with social distancing, since I don't see any way for the US to emulate S. Korea's testing and tracing success.

Does anybody have any logical reason for thinking that the US can copy S. Korea?

Does the US have any way to do up to 600 million tests per week and see the result in an hour?

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#139

Post by philwelch » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #110

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If only we had some sort of united group of all the States, where the response could be coordinated and centralized for maximum effectiveness. We do! It's called the United States government. I'll be letting the president know you're interested in him taking over and using his own ideas, instead of this one you seem to be particularly fond of. Or, if that idea is slightly terrifying for you, perhaps it's a better i…

You have no idea how crazy you sound as a European lol, the most straightforward way to put it is you're using an anonymous account on a website to dunk on someone in the comments section for implying they may care about avoiding infection during a pandemic

As a European I’d think you’d appreciate the point he’s making. This is analogous to Spain and Portugal deciding on a joint Iberian policy between the two of them instead of trying to go to the EU and haggle it out with Hungary and Sweden.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#140

Post by Press2forEN » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

yingw787 wrote: post #76

spankalee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fear that tomorrow Why fear? This is my dream! The Senate is irreparably broken. There is no conceivable way that it can become more fairly representative of the people without a breakup of the United States. The smaller less populous states aren't going to just give up their outsized power voluntarily. California is suffering the most due to the Senate's structural unfairness, and it has the most to gain from su…

Dude...if we're talking about secession, we're talking about civil war. In a country with the second most nuclear weapons in the world. With a federal government already looking to adversaries for cooperation. You're talking nuclear missiles or chemical weapons fired against San Francisco, Los Angeles, or Seattle from land-based silos in the Dakotas, or mutinies aboard our SSBNs, or Russian troops landing en masse in…

We can have a peaceful secession.

In many ways we've seceded from each other already. I, for one, live in a blue state but find it harder and harder to cope with life here from a cultural and political standpoint.

Secession may be the only peaceful way forward.