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Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

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Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#301
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are spot on. I have had to learn this multiple times. If the person is not willing to accept the observation with open arms (hint: most are not), you will only push the person away. However, I can't help but see the small irony in your reply. >[do not] give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers >one dear friend [gave me unsolicited advice which helped]

I think the standard psycho-therapeutic "tell them how it makes you feel" advice applies here and accounts for the difference. It's one thing to give unsolicited advice to someone. It's quite another to tell a close friend "Look, I need to tell you something important because I care about you. When you start telling me all the ways I should change to be a 'better person', it really makes me feel bad, and makes me not…

I don't really think unsolicited advice is even that bad usually. if you see someone struggling with a task and offer a good tip, they usually appreciate it. when someone starts venting about a problem, they are (implicitly) asking for something other than advice: usually just a kind ear. this is basically the worst moment to start offering advice.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#302

Socially insecure people should just watch the s*it out of this channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/charismaoncommand/videos I think visual examples can be way more impactful than what the linked dry text guide could ever hope to be.

Why is everyone on ycombinator promoting their own stuff today? Admins, can you stop this?

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization. I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am - even if it hasn't been very common (in my experience).

>would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization No, it's an explicitly sexist generalization, based on the reality that interests tend to be heavily gendered across disciplines and across societies. I also think it's absurd that we're supposed to dance around this fact in the name of politeness when it's right in front of our faces and affects almost every social interaction we h…

Yo OP. My intent here was to help avoiding anyone taking on the assumption that "women don't want to talk code". I didn't mean to throw you or your comment under the bus as sexist - which is why I said "borderline".

Obviously, most women don't code, because most people don't code. The likelihood of bumping into a woman randomly and her being able to nerd out about the latest NodeJS framework with you is about as likely as being able to bump into anyone and discuss the pros and cons to some new breakthrough in materials science - most people just aren't experienced in the field...

My goal is to share a friendly word of hope to guys out there that might think there aren't ladies who will want to nerd out about code with them. There certainly are. You just need to put yourself in the right environment to meet people who have similar experience. Your local bar (unless you're in a very software heavy town), likely isn't the best place. Conferences, meetups, etc, might be worth checking out for meeting like-minds.

Though, generally speaking, if you're looking for a conversation topic for a date, code wouldn't be my first suggestion. It's like talking politics. You might land yourself in an opinionated argument really quickly - fighting about the tradeoffs to upgrading to python3...

If you don't have any other interests to talk about with a partner besides code, I highly suggest expanding your horizons. Learn to cook, or snowboard, or get into a popular TV show. Anything to diversify your personal experiences. It'll at least give you some fuel for more interesting conversations.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I learned the hard way that I have to pay the entry fee of listening for 5-10 minutes and affirming emotions before I'm allowed to offer solutions. This wasn't immediately obvious for me, because in my case, the optimal listening time is 0 - if I didn't want actionable advice or knew how to solve a problem, I wouldn't be bringing it up in the first place.

Why are men expected to be the only ones who have to put in any effort and make any changes in this situation?

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Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#305

While some of you may make light of the fact that I am giving you advice, my single most important piece of advice to people who are highly analytical and/or always solving problems is to not give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers. People will ask for advice if they really want it. People are not “broken pieces of code” begging to be fixed. I’ve lost friends over this, until one…

I've been working on this since I noticed it in myself a few years back. It's really difficult because I'm the "problem-solver," but I'm also the person that people want to vent to. So I've come to realize - After a friend/coworker shares something that they're sad/angry about, my standard MO is: 1) Say something like "Wow, that must really feel terrible. I'm sorry to hear that!" (I always feel the need to add more t…

The trouble I have with #1 is when someone tells me their problem and they don't want help with it, now I have a new problem to worry about, and worse, I can't take action to solve it because the problem isn't mine.

I guess the trick is not worrying about other people's problems. But... I dunno, I just don't like unsolved problems hanging around.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "extreme consequences" for mistakes in social situations?

For awhile now, everyone has been one viral moment away from mob justice. You might lose your career, or you might get harassed day and night, or worse just for slighting the wrong person. But you also can't opt out of online socializing if you want to meet and keep in touch with people.

[deleted]

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to know the person to be sure they are ok with it. If there is any uncertainty then don't be honest about what you think, just give the standard advice like "Just be yourself" or "You are wonderful, just haven't found the right one yet!". The alternative is to just be brutally honest and that way filter out friends who aren't ok with it. It might hurt a bit, but if you value this kind of communication over h…

Lying is bad

yes and no. the actual content of a conversation is often not the literal meaning of the words. many conversations are actually meaningless, but serve to anchor participants in the script. when the cashier says "hi, how are you?" and you say "alright, how about you?" even though you feel awful, this is not really lying; it's just a choreographed handshake that begins the transaction.

in the stereotypical "does this dress make me look fat?" conversation, the person is (probably) not asking whether her partner think she looks fat. the actual content here is usually a request for reassurance. even if the partner does think she looks fat, "no, of course not" isn't really a lie; it's just satisfying the subtextual request.

if on the other hand, she says "I have a meeting with some executives today, does this outfit work?", she is looking for a literal answer and responding with reassurance would be unhelpful.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#308

>In a nutshell, you inspire me when something that you share makes me want to share something, too. Notice the word "want" in that definition. Inspiration does not make your partner feel obligated to share. It makes them want to share. This is the part that I've been stuck at for years. And I imagine other technical people hit this roadblock as well. Being able to talk with people when you have little in the way of c…

> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization. I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am - even if it hasn't been very common (in my experience).

Replying here to kempbellt, allovernow, and mcguire:

They were interested in "intimate relationships" with women. If I'm wanting to date a woman, I never bring up my tech knowledge. I tell them I'm an inventor who works on things that help people get things done, stop bad folks, etc. I tell them the goals in terms of what effects it has on people with no details. Women like that since non-technical ones see its value and more-technical ones still focus on people effects a bit more than guys. If woman wants tech details, I give them that. Virtually never happened outside tech-focused places like HN or Lobsters.

I talk abstractly about it because the second I mention code I get tuned out, friend-zoned or some association with Hollywood's nerd characters (eg Big Bang Theory or some nerd on cop show). That's how most of them think across the tens of thousands I've interacted with in customer-focused jobs, parties, and public places. You don't even have to come onto them or anything to find out: just bring up tech in a 3rd-person way... 3rd person to separate it from yourself in their perception... and watch how they tune out, cut it down, or otherwise mentally shift gears.

I stay on what they're likely to be interested in, be my fun/somewhat-bad self, etc. Once they know and like me, I drop some of that tech stuff in there. If anything, they just nod like it's some weird hobby I have, a nice thing to do on the side, sometimes just confused about a useless thing I do, or whatever. There's no strong connection most have to it that would benefit me in the slightest. I'm just telling them about it to be more honest at that point. Then, I usually move onto other topics with most people, esp women, often forgetting I even do tech. That's intentional given I lose opportunities with most people due to that association.

It's rare that anybody outside tech areas thinks that stuff is neat or important. And those are almost always married. (sighs) Well, they still make good friends and coworkers. I tell them that, too. Always gets a smile or laugh out of them. Meanwhile, it's a hard fact that most women aren't into guys that engineer, code, or secure things.

Epilogue: Funniest part is that most people talking about sexism in coding will tell you all kinds of ways society keeps women out of it. The actual sexism keeps women uninterested in deep, hands-on tech while reinforcing their interest in other things. Then, some of you talk about how it's sexist to think most women aren't going to be interested in tech or tech workers. I mean, it's a natural effect of both womens' interests in general and sexism that pushes women away from tech. Be consistent people.

"I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am"

Adding this in there just in case anyone misreads my reply. In industry or tech-anything, we should ask open-ended questions to get to know each other instead of assuming anything. Folks will definitely meet others super-interested and capable in tech that they might not have expected to meet. There will be plenty of women along that path since they went to those places specifically because they were interested in tech, were nerds, and so on. This gets us back to don't judge people in general until you've had a chance to meet them. Look at meeting each person as maybe opening up opportunities for who knows what.

The person I responded about was talking dates and meaningful relationships outside work, though. That's a different thing altogether. That's what my comment addressed.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#309
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. When you ask “so what do you want to do about it?”, you get no as an answer. “I was just venting man” is a legit response, so it’s all fair enough. You can take it from there. Let them vent, you can only vent so much.

I am not sure it is that simple. When someone vents off to me - I can't ignore it, I am no psychopath. This is especially hard with people whom I am close with. Having a solution is what gives my brain to "check it off", which I equally need as they need to vent. What should I do? To tell fuck off with their complains if they are not seeking a solution? (done that to some, they still do not understand) Just keep soak…

I find that I am like most people in these threads and find it difficult to not provide advice on how to solve unsolved problems in other people's lives.

That being said, when more "socially normal" people are the recipients of other people's venting, I don't imagine that they are able to ignore it because they are psychopaths. In fact, I imagine many of them aren't actually ignoring it. I imagine that many of them feel sympathy, some maybe even empathy, but they understand what we don't, namely that unsolicited advice makes it worse. More "socially normal" people understand how to commiserate without providing unsolicited advice, and they understand that such commiseration is helpful.

Like I've told my wife multiple times, if I'm venting, I want solutions. If someone isn't able to give me advice, they're not helpful. But I've realized that more "socially normal" people aren't like this. They often don't care about the solution, they just want to be heard and understood. I don't get it, it boggles my mind to no end. But I've come to accept that it's true (though I often forget). My wife doesn't care for my solutions if she doesn't ask for them. She'll figure it out herself. She just needs emotional support.

Again, emotional support is useless to me. It's idiotic. I need solutions, not emotional support. But other people want the opposite.

Now, how to provide that emotional support... without being flippant, condescending, insincere, etc... is yet another conundrum... partly due to my foundational believe that emotional support by itself is useless. How can I be sincere about something I don't believe to be effective?

Anyway, my point is... I don't think others are psychopaths... they're just more emotionally intelligent as to what other people are actually hoping to get when in need.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That’s why I find dev.to and to be a rather uninteresting place. It’s 90% niceties and explaining .map over and over again. Similar things can be observed in many meetups and some companies. Everything is awesome. Everybody is nice. People shy away from deciding anything . Even the simple act of two people wanting to go through the same door at the same time is an impossible conundrum. No matter how important ps…

> Even the simple act of two people wanting to go through the same door at the same time is an impossible conundrum. Tangential, but I hit this issue very often with couple of friends during university years; two of us wanted to go through a door, and get stuck in a "you go", "no, you go", "I insist" loop. At some point I said, "you know what, let's do rock-paper-scissors, if you lose you go first". It immediately ca…

So you took a negative result (deadlock) and solved it in a mutually beneficial way (break deadlock + in-group reinforcement). That's awesome.
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