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Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

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Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#301

Post by JohnFen »

marcosdumay wrote: post #194
luxuryballs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m about to release a fun little ambient physics based puzzle game on iOS and have been debating this. To me ads are a stain on what I consider my art. But at the same time I want to monetize and wonder if people will skip over a $1.99 download. What do you think? Ads with the option to unlock? Seems gross though... maybe free with paid version that includes level editor or additional level packs?

Publish it with ads; don't push enough ads that they take a relevant share of the player's time; if you have calm periods (like changing levels) prefer quick full screen ads on those periods; offer the option to pay for making the ads go away; make sure the ads really go away after somebody pays. That is the best "user friendly, but viable" option I've seen in the wild.

As a user, that wouldn't work for me. The problem isn't the ads themselves, but that the presence of ads is proof positive that I'm being spied on.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#302

Post by JohnFen »

tschwimmer wrote: post #123

This is interesting and valuable analysis. Despite a lot of people in this thread saying "See! I told you ads are user toxic!" I'd easily make this tradeoff if I had no/limited other sources of revenue. Two additional questions I have are: 1) Which 10% of users churn because of ads? Are these just average p50% actives or are they power users who evangalize your product? 2) What's the effect on annual growth rate?

> I'd easily make this tradeoff if I had no/limited other sources of revenue.

Not me.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#303

Post by [deleted] »

copperx wrote: post #119
jermaustin1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss this model for games. Demo disks were my favorite thing in the world. I'd play a demo a dozen times or so before I decided that it was worth begging a parent to buy the game for me.

It has been a long time since I played games, but I thought games still had demos. In Steam, do you have to buy a game before playing it?

[deleted]

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#304

Post by vict00ms »

chrisdsaldivar wrote: post #267
jacobolus wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a bummer. Sounds like you might be one of the few people who would have still developed myopia 200 years ago.

Yeah seems so; it's not too bad though. However, I have high index lenses and they bend red and blue light up or down if I look at the source from the top or bottom edge of my lenses. There's the interesting effect where dark red or blue text on a black background looks like its in 3D. The text even shifts when I move my head around. Honestly, I should really just get lasik; people I know that got it swear by it.

Look into ICL...more expensive but reversible (among other advantages).

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#305

Post by Shacklz »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #213
TeMPOraL wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to how prostitution seems more ethical than telemarketing - one involves voluntary exchange of value between two willing consenting parties, the other involves harassing people and, frequently, trying to scam them.

Organized crime has been really successful in spreading the "two willing consenting parties" myth. Trust me - there is only ever one willing consenting party. No woman on earth wants to @%$! a constant parade of scumbags.

"Trust me" isn't exactly a convincing argument...

I agree with your second sentiment (although I wouldn't generalize to "scumbags"), but there are a lot of people out there doing jobs that are extremely unpleasant, for far less money than prostitution can make.

If you don't have to fear your customer because the legal system has your back (making you independent of pimps and the like), prostitution is a possible way to make a significant amount of money - on your own conditions, in your own time, without the fear of being fired and all the other stuff a normal workplace imposes.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#306

Post by JohnFen »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #292
stickfigure wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you go out and talk to some actual sex workers, with an open mind. I know (socially) a few former sex workers, and they would vehemently disagree with your characterization. The world is way, waaaay more complicated than you seem to think.

Which characterization? I made two. I disagree with your characterization that "sex work" is "waaay complicated". Putting together a lego set is more complicated.

"there is only ever one willing consenting party"

This is demonstrably untrue.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#307

Post by JohnFen »

TomMarius wrote: post #272
zkomp wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More interesting question: How do we know regular drug users are not self medicating.

They in fact frequently are. There are huge communities dedicated to that on the Internet. BTW a lot of the previously illegal and unthinkable treatments these people used have just been legalised in the EU, using MDMA etc.

Indeed. And although I wouldn't recommend the self-medicating route, it's hard to deny that there are some people who get much better results doing that than getting "official" medical help.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#308

Post by nybble41 »

JohnFen wrote: post #301
marcosdumay wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publish it with ads; don't push enough ads that they take a relevant share of the player's time; if you have calm periods (like changing levels) prefer quick full screen ads on those periods; offer the option to pay for making the ads go away; make sure the ads really go away after somebody pays. That is the best "user friendly, but viable" option I've seen in the wild.

As a user, that wouldn't work for me. The problem isn't the ads themselves, but that the presence of ads is proof positive that I'm being spied on.

> the presence of ads is proof positive that I'm being spied on

There is such a thing as non-targeted advertising. An app developer can solicit money from sponsors to have their ads included in the app and displayed at particular times without sending any data back to either the developer or the advertiser. This is how advertising worked back before every app started demanding a continuous Internet connection even for basic non-network functions.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#309

Post by JohnFen »

nybble41 wrote: post #308
JohnFen wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user, that wouldn't work for me. The problem isn't the ads themselves, but that the presence of ads is proof positive that I'm being spied on.

> the presence of ads is proof positive that I'm being spied on There is such a thing as non-targeted advertising. An app developer can solicit money from sponsors to have their ads included in the app and displayed at particular times without sending any data back to either the developer or the advertiser. This is how advertising worked back before every app started demanding a continuous Internet connection even fo…

Yes, there is indeed. But it's very rare, and I can't tell whether or not those are the sorts of ads being used, so I have to assume they're all bad.

Almost all app developers who include advertising are using third party libraries to do the ads, after all.

Re: Gwern's Law: Ads cost you a tenth of your users

#310

Post by JohnFen »

pawelmurias wrote: post #175
1000units wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my conscience would be more satisfied working in porn than mobile gaming.

I worked in mobile gaming and would never work in porn (unless it was like filtering or prosecuting creators). A coworker hard a good point to say what the people who are addicted to mobile games would be addicted/spend money on if they didn't play. It's possible they would be buying meth/booze with it.

> A coworker hard a good point to say what the people who are addicted to mobile games would be addicted/spend money on if they didn't play.

That is nothing like a good point at all. It sounds more like rationalizing questionable activity.

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