Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#301

Post by throwaway30yo » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

andrewjl wrote: post #249

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

Society benefits when people get more educated, period, including better voting decision, more civic engagement, and ability to build social ties across class, ethnic, and ideological lines.

Sure, but a modern day University is not a great model for education. All of the information from a 4 year degree can be found on the internet for free. Essentially you are buying accountability and for some majors getting past their barriers of entry.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#302

Post by drspacemonkey » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

OliverJones wrote: post #262

nsporillo wrote: post #58

As a current student and one who will graduate with roughly $60k in student debt, after scholarships and grants - I often question the legitimacy of the driving factors in increased tuition. Most would say the volume of administrators has ballooned due to the increasing number of services universities now provide for the students. Better and more services offered to students should benefit quality of life. Does the e…

The article mentions "loose student loan underwriting standards." Here's what's going on: The people originating the loans have no skin in the game. So, they don't call NYU or even Northern Essex Community College and say, "look, here's a student who wants to be a social worker, asking for 100K in loans to get the degree. We don't think they'll be able to repay that debt on a social worker's wages. So, no loan." If t…

So ultimately, it's the same core issue as the 2008 housing collapse. When lenders don't have to give half a crap about the borrower's ability to repay a loan, they just keep issuing bigger and bigger loans.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#303

Post by sli » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

elif wrote: post #296

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

what's wrong with a 4-year vacation where you enrich your mind? That sounds perfectly healthy on an individual level, and tolerable on a societal level. Perhaps even necessary if you consider the deterioration of discourse in this country. Also, It's not like food and housing becomes free when tuition is removed.

Perhaps we could make only the first time through college free. If you fail or drop out, the next time through, the student covers tuition themselves.

I have no real opinion on that idea, or any idea how effective it would be, so I'll say nothing more.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#304

Post by jartelt » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

sorrymate wrote: post #216

jartelt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the word "loan" is in the name of the financial product, you are expected to repay. At some point we need to be upfront with high school graduate and tell them it is a bad idea to go study art history at a $40k a year no-name private college.

If the choice is between not going to college vs. earning a degree, statistically you earn more simply by having a college degree, regardless of the major. Bachelor Degree holders, on average, earn a million dollars more during their life time than those who only have a high school diploma. Even if you are accounting for lost earning potential, cost of tuition, supplies etc... your still talking about hundreds of tho…

Totally agree. If they want to do so, I would certainly recommend a young person get a degree regardless of whether it is STEM or not. I just wouldn't give someone a huge loan to study a low earning major at a expensive private college. That is just setting them up for a mountain of debt they are unlikely to be able to pay off.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#305

Post by weeksie » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #287

weeksie wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find people who say things like this don't understand the great amount of good that elementary education provides. Basic literacy and mathematics skills are tough things to teach effectively. They're not at all difficult to provide if you have the time and resources to spend on your child, but many people do not (have the inclination or the time). Bad idea to punish the children of those people for their parents' d…

I think I was unclear, or you're rounding my view off to a very different one that I admit is common. I'm a child of teachers, and I know quite a lot of people who teach in inner cities or narrowly made it out of impoverished towns because of good education. There's a reason I said "as well as an educational system", and I definitely don't believe the daycare role of schools is a reason to cut budgets or cut schoolin…

Apologies for completely misreading your post. And I agree with everything you've said.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#306

Post by lrem » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

Many countries provide free (you don't even have to buy overpriced books or any other scam) education on all levels (including PhD). Even the middling ones like Poland. You simply estimate your rough requirements for different specialties and fund that many students. Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat (50 applicants per slot are not unheard of), but that only works for the better.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#307

Post by bobsman123 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

We already have this system. There are income based repayment plans that cap and hire forgiveness at 20 years for undergrad or 25 for graduate.

It’s 10% of AGI annually for Revised pay as you earn.

Please don’t call for more government when we already have those solutions.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#308

Post by matwood » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

I'm going to say something that probably isn't that popular here... all education is a good thing and valuable. The problem is that the costs have made it such that the only education worth pursuing is STEM, which IMO is a travesty.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#309

Post by bobsman123 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

Veratyr wrote: post #177

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings In Australia we have a system somewhere between this and a loan. You go to (heavily subsidized) university, tuition is paid for by the government with an automatic interest free loan. Once you earn above a particular (somewhat generous) threshold, your employer automatically starts taking a percentage of your inc…

We have that in the US as well. And you do have interest - variable rate tracking inflation.

In the US, the minimum payment is $0 and forgiveness happens at 20 or 25 years.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#310

Post by iak8god » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

> I can imagine that that would stimulate a huge influx of people who do that simply as an excuse to take a 4-year vacation (of sorts).

The current trend is to run universities and colleges "like a business." In this model, students (and their parents) are the paying customers. The mantra of good customer service is "the customer is always right." This is ultimately the source of much of the grade inflation[1]. If you tell your customers that they are "wrong" by not giving them the grades they prefer or by making them work harder than they would like for those grades, they will react in ways that ultimately hit your bottom line. Undergraduate education should not be like a vacation. Any student who treats it that way should be flunked out after their first term.

Having taxpayer funded "free" (or dirt cheap) higher ed wouldn't fix these problems over night, but it would help remove some of the weird incentives that are currently undermining the core mission of actually educating people.

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/03/29/survey-finds-...