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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#301

Post by hadcoffee »

tremon wrote: post #273
sho wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to upvote this a hundred times. I've got family in China too and for fuck's sake they are just normal people. Sure, their government is a control freak, but tell me, how much do you like your government? At least theirs manages to build things! And who's about to elect Trump president? The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech, just like they can't handle guns. They should be able to but t…

The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech I will have to disagree here. In my view, freedoms require training to wield them correctly. Part of that training is social (and hence requires good role models), and part is educational (and requires a good education system). When either of those fail, you can expect problems (extremism in the former, and Trump in the latter case). But that doesn't mean…

Since you mentioned about "training to wield them correctly". This is the state of China that majority people that are actively using online social networks are those who lack of control and responsibility.

The Greatest Firewall blocks those who are less educated and does not know how to use technologies for the good, block those who can be manipulated easily by other politicians.

A lot of techies in China are able to get through this, in fact, there are special routers for setting up the network linked with Google/Youtube/Facebook or you name it, it's privately giving consent by the government, they sometime installed in large firms to ensure that smarter people can use information for the good. Now, again think about the gun scenario comparing to the US.

From national point of view, blocking or censorship is not only about freedom. They are protecting citizen's privacy and information for the nation. If you are the president, of course you do not want majority of the citizen's information held by a US company that is very good at machine learning; you also want to think about how to protect or help to shape the technology culture slowly without being disrupted by foreign countries.

Mostly of the time that people talking about things went wrong, but once you are in that person's shoes with the limitations/stresses he/she's facing, you probably start to see the reasons.

And of course the wsj or any US media is going to troll it as an outsider. It's also under US's national interests.

At least that the news in China never troll about other countries. I rarely seen any, most of the time they are thinking about what's good in other countries (creativity, tech, startup).

Now, try run a startup with about 100 people and maintain a good culture there - scale it 100 Billion times and think about maintaining it - it's not an easy job. It's nice to observe it, I won't complaint about it.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#302

Post by hadcoffee »

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #291
PJDK wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You put 'human rights' all day long beside your mouth, haha, but never really investigate if human rights in China really worse than western countries. US government criticizes the Chinese government for this all day long but never say nothing about their arabic friends. And Snowden is from US, right? But how exactly are we to investigate China? Can a western journalist (or indeed any journalist) travel freely aroun…

True investigation of a country requires a lot of time and effort, you have to live and feel the people here, reading reports will not give you a true understanding even it's based on facts. Unfortunately, statistically most western journalists now are extremely biased as it comes to politics. They are writing things for you to read, not for us. They will write things that you will understand and you will like, even…

I totally agree with you. Probably censorship is the least they worry about. Censorship is big because is's biased towards online user group.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#303

Post by rotten »

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

Open discourse and debate are how new ideas emerge and either flourish or return to obscurity. The "chaos" you fear is the forge for the future.

Without advances in science, political thought, and technology, we will implode from over population, new diseases, lack of food, diminishing resources, and bottled up dissent fed by perceived injustices and those same diminishing resources.

With censorship you may be able to make everything appear quiet on the surface, however you are shaking the beer can and it only a matter of time before it ruptures.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#304

Post by bovermyer »

gbog wrote: post #293
bovermyer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I was speaking generally of the desire to get along with others and work together towards a common positive relationship, not specifically of making China like the West. The bit about China "embrassing" (I assume you mean embracing) the "useful" parts of Western culture is neither relevant to this discussion, nor particularly constructive; it comes off sounding defensive more…

You were right in tell GP that if you want to change a country you should continue talking. But what I was reacting to is the idea that other countries should be "improved", which always mean to follow Western's value and culture. I've been living in China for over ten years, and I hope this admirable continent-sized country will never become like the USA or Europe. My wish for these people is that they continue to f…

I get the sense that we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about keeping dialogues open in an attempt to avoid xenophobia-driven dehumanization of another culture. You seem to be (and correct me if I'm wrong) talking just about protecting Chinese culture from Western influence.

Whether China needs to be improved or not, and who needs to do that, is actually irrelevant to this discussion. I just want to encourage people to work together instead of starting Cold Wars.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#305

Post by ZenoArrow »

studentrob wrote: post #299
ZenoArrow wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "A quality education is not spoon fed." It can be, you just have to be picky about the spoons. It's also useful to avoid relying on a single source of information, a diet of opposing views is healthy. Self-directed education is probably the best overall, but nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world, at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity o…

> nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world Exactly. Self directed education is as much about ignoring information you don't need as it is about absorbing information. > at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity outside of your main interests At many points we need to re-examine already-trusted news sources. For example, the Discovery Channel wh…

> "Exactly. Self directed education is as much about ignoring information you don't need as it is about absorbing information."

Not everything that you're interested in will end up covering the most important new developments of the day. For example, if you spend most of your self-directed learning focused on learning about physics, you may miss news related to the economy, and it could turn out that there's an important event related to the economy that you should be aware of. In such cases, you will be relying on the expertise of others in the field.

Speaking generally, it's healthy to have a passing interest in many things, as long as you can also acknowledge that your understanding of things you don't spend a lot of time on is likely to be limited.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#306

Post by Chris2048 »

Artistry121 wrote: post #198
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

In my time in Saudi Arabia it seemed like propaganda worked well and people were generally happy - even those who were poorer - and saw western society as hyper competitive and immoral. (They were very kind to us Westerners, however)

What made you think anyone unhappy about the system would open up to you?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#307

Post by studentrob »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #305
studentrob wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world Exactly. Self directed education is as much about ignoring information you don't need as it is about absorbing information. > at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity outside of your main interests At many points we need to re-examine already-trusted news sources. For example, the Discovery Channel wh…

> "Exactly. Self directed education is as much about ignoring information you don't need as it is about absorbing information." Not everything that you're interested in will end up covering the most important new developments of the day. For example, if you spend most of your self-directed learning focused on learning about physics, you may miss news related to the economy, and it could turn out that there's an impor…

I agree with all that. I think we're both being picky about each other's words, or we're both not. You pick, or I will.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#308

Post by toss1 »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #258
toss1 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you really think that Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao? That our democracy, as flawed as it is, is not better than China's one-party, censorship, mobile execution vans? Why have you not moved there yet? Yes, there are are sometimes, even many senseless wars, but that does not mean that all are so. And it certainly does not mean that people…

> Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao Russia and China were on the same side as the US and UK in the second world war. > Seriously, please learn some actual history (or at least don't spout the ignorance) OK... EDIT Not sure why this would be drive by down voted?

Yes, Stalin and Mao were at least enemies-of-our-enemies in WWII; and immediately after they became our direct enemies in the cold war (in which people died directly and in proxy wars, e.g., Korea, Vietnam).

My comment was not about one specific war, but about the general concept that some societies and ways of living are qualitatively and quantitatively better than others, and that people will willingly sign up to fight to preserve those societies, even knowing that being killed is a likely outcome.

As a simple quantitative measure, Google "Dictator Death Tolls", and you'll find Hitler in third place variously counted at 17-30 million, Stalin in 2nd at 23-40 million and Mao topping the charts at 60-78 Million -- people killed by their leadership.

As much as we complain about the inequities of our governments, every possible complaint utterly pales on contrast to those societies -- at least we can complain, or wear glasses, or be born into an unfavored family without being killed for it.

More to the point, when threatened with living under one of those regimes instead of ours, many sane people would eagerly sign up to fight, with full knowledge that they could die.

Signing up to fight for such a cause is considered noble far outside the bounds of Christianity cited by the GP, is the furthest thing possible from the "not knowing the consequences" and "following their naive emotions" cited by the GP, and the contempt with which the GP writes of those actions is simply wrong.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#309

Post by PhasmaFelis »

chrischen wrote: post #71
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is known as the "And you are lynching negroes" argument, from the Soviet rhetorical tactic used to deflect attention from their own human rights abuses without actually having to address them. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes > If China wasn't so protecive, they would have become economically dependent on the west (as opposed to being the powerhouse they are today). You're claiming…

They censor outside influence and ideas that are influenced from the outside. Obviously ideas that infect people within China would be in practice censoring "Chinese" people.

> They censor outside influence and ideas that are influenced from the outside.

Well, no, they censor all ideas that run contrary to the party line, period, regardless of origin. I suppose you could try to claim that no Chinese person could ever independently conceive of an idea that contravenes the will of the Party, so if such ideas occur then they must have been crowbarred into their innocent minds by foreign propagandists, but that would be stupid.

> Obviously ideas that infect people within China would be in practice censoring "Chinese" people.

Huh?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#310

Post by tripzilch »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #145
bad_user wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

> nobody (who matters) will listen to you

I do like freedom of speech just about as far as I have the freedom to not have to listen to it (or, Goddess forbid, take it seriously).

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