China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#291

Post by qd6pwu4 » Wed, May 25, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

PJDK wrote: post #253

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

>You put 'human rights' all day long beside your mouth, haha, but never really investigate if human rights in China really worse than western countries. US government criticizes the Chinese government for this all day long but never say nothing about their arabic friends. And Snowden is from US, right? But how exactly are we to investigate China? Can a western journalist (or indeed any journalist) travel freely aroun…

True investigation of a country requires a lot of time and effort, you have to live and feel the people here, reading reports will not give you a true understanding even it's based on facts. Unfortunately, statistically most western journalists now are extremely biased as it comes to politics. They are writing things for you to read, not for us. They will write things that you will understand and you will like, even if they tell lies. There are many examples of how western journalists made fake reports on Xizang(Tibet) and Xinjiang. That does a lot of harm to China's politics and diplomacy in the world. So if a foreigner wants freedom, he/she should prove to deserve it. I think now many foreigners in China get almost the same level of freedom as Chinese citizens.

As to uniting the country, in Chinese history, every time when China is united as a whole, people get better life. Once divided, wars come, that is a whole disaster to Chinese people. There is always a force in China to make the country unite, that will make the whole Chinese people's lives better. You see, even EU is uniting European countries, unite brings greater good, though not everyone of 1.4 billion understands it. Sorry, here, we can't let everyone shout his voice out.

As to "I'm pretty happy and hopefully everyone else is too", no I didn't say that. Actually, I'm not that happy, and everyone in China is not that happy. But you have to see what we are worrying about. I have traveled around the country and lived in many cities and in the countryside(I have many relatives there), and I have quite a few friends from Xinjiang and Xizang(Tibet) too. For now, if you don't live in deep mountains, your life quality will be good. Food good, cloth good, water and power supply good, hygiene condition good. But there is still a lot of improvements to go, we don't want merely good, we want fantastic. So we are all worried how to make more money, work harder get a better job, when can I buy my own dream flat, how to teach our children better, how to make our parents happy. I think worrying about these kinds of problems is much better than worrying about the problems of refugees in Syria.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#292

Post by qd6pwu4 » Wed, May 25, 2016, 3:03 AM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #248

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

> As to why CCP is blocking the internet? Because, the blocked sites contains values that is not really about freedom or human rights, instead that is like virus, that will do harm to our values and the interest our the Chinese people. Who defines what is in the best interest for the Chinese people?

If Chinese people start to argue about this, haha, then damn it, our lives are doomed. Deng Xiaoping has said: "Don't argue, just try it, just do it." China has made mistakes arguing, and the outcome is horrible.

However, there is something close to a common sense now, the best interest for Chinese people in the first 100 years of PRC is to lead all the Chinese people to live at least in moderate prosperity, to build a modern country.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#293

Post by gbog » Wed, May 25, 2016, 4:03 AM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #219

gbog wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want them to change? And change to become what? To become more like you? To me Western civilisation has this recurring feature to want other people to be like them. It was the case with proselytism, colonialism, etc. I understand a will to change a threatening country, or to get rid of a really evil tyran like Pol Pot. But a country having a different level of censorship of the media is not, to me, a ca…

I don't even know how to respond to this. I was speaking generally of the desire to get along with others and work together towards a common positive relationship, not specifically of making China like the West. The bit about China "embrassing" (I assume you mean embracing) the "useful" parts of Western culture is neither relevant to this discussion, nor particularly constructive; it comes off sounding defensive more…

You were right in tell GP that if you want to change a country you should continue talking. But what I was reacting to is the idea that other countries should be "improved", which always mean to follow Western's value and culture.

I've been living in China for over ten years, and I hope this admirable continent-sized country will never become like the USA or Europe. My wish for these people is that they continue to find their unique way to be happy.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#294

Post by wynemo » Wed, May 25, 2016, 4:17 AM UTC

flatM wrote: post #182

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I know communism left a big scar on you, which is totally understandable. The Romanian Communist government was a puppet one imposed by Stalin's Red Army, which has no legitimacy anyway. That is not the case for China. The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then. The economical progress they led in Chi…

>The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then.

that's not true, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War , CCP didn't do anything really. later in civil war, CCP used some dirty tricks to win and took control of China.

>China has been making huge progresses for the past three decades both financially and socially. Hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants got out of poverty and started enjoy more freedom in education, living, migration and social upwardness. On that fact alone, China should be praised instead of being scolded on.

well, the real fact are that all economic progress are made by Chinese ordinary people selves rather than by CCP. CCP are a bunch of dirty gangsters.

one example:

due to poor supervision to food, we have to buy imported milk powder because milk powder in China would make babies sick. and we have to pay high tax for imported milk powder.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#295

Post by riprowan » Wed, May 25, 2016, 4:57 AM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #202

bad_user wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

Great sacrifice was also made for the Chinese people to enjoy the way of life that they have. In international issues, it's important to not lose sight of the possibility that there are multiple correct ways to solve political problems.

Great sacrifice was also made for the Chinese people to enjoy the way of life that they do not yet have.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01651/tiananmen_...

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#296

Post by poof131 » Wed, May 25, 2016, 5:44 AM UTC

zpharer wrote: post #290

poof131 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. A good thing. Or possibly a bad thing if we strengthen a tyranny that can’t find a path to freedom for its people. History will tell. What I find most upsetting though is that much of this comes at the expense of the american middle class while the american upper class benefits. So less unrest in one country leads to more in another. Personally, I wish values drove foreign policy more than business. And trade d…

I'd weigh lifting 100's of millions of people out of extreme poverty as much more morally important than avoiding stagnant American middle class wages.

But what if we could lift 100's of millions more if the american upper class contributed more. It's not that the task isn't worth doing but if that is the point, we should all be choosing to do it together.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#297

Post by dang » Wed, May 25, 2016, 5:47 AM UTC

jonstokes wrote: post #201

Broken English, and most of the few comments you have in your profile are pro-China. Hmmmm.....

This comment breaks HN's civility rule twice. First, you insinuated astroturfing (or commenting in bad faith). That's not allowed without evidence. Merely happening to disagree with someone is not evidence. Second, you invoked (allegedly) poor English to cast aspersion on someone. That's pretty low, given how many non-native speakers HN has and how poorly the rest of us would do in most other contexts.

Please treat others more respectfully on this site.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11761460 and marked it off-topic.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#298

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, May 25, 2016, 7:11 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #274

TeMPOraL wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. Well, it only had to last a month :).

You'd have to go multiple years for there to be any risk of shutdown at all. I've never even received a threat.

Speak of the devil:

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/984988.shtml

It is like they come up every year and say: "we are really going to do this now."

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#299

Post by studentrob » Wed, May 25, 2016, 7:52 AM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #209

studentrob wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A vast majority of people do not have the time to do any of that A quality education is not spoon fed. It is the responsibility of the individual to educate him or herself. Making media available is only half of the equation

> "A quality education is not spoon fed." It can be, you just have to be picky about the spoons. It's also useful to avoid relying on a single source of information, a diet of opposing views is healthy. Self-directed education is probably the best overall, but nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world, at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity o…

> nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world

Exactly. Self directed education is as much about ignoring information you don't need as it is about absorbing information.

> at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity outside of your main interests

At many points we need to re-examine already-trusted news sources. For example, the Discovery Channel which lost its ability to be scientific.

To hear even more different perspectives, learn a foreign language so you can read their news or talk to foreigners.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#300

Post by seletz » Wed, May 25, 2016, 8:11 AM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #263

seletz wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general. Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that…

> I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. Just don't say "The Nazis are great and I really wish they were back in power." That'll get you straight-up jailed under section 86a of Strafgesetzbuch, if I understand correctly. Everything else is on the table. ;) http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Well -- apart from the fact that you probably wouldn't () -- one can always come up with something which is against "rules". Be it social rules, rules you made up in your head, law and so on. Rules are what it takes apparently to uphold a coherent society.
The question is what happens if you break the rules. Are there rules on how to handle individuals who break rules? Do the ones who have the power also have to follow the same rules? What about those wo make the rules? Do they have to follow the rules? How is the process of rule-making, rule-checking and punishing separated?
I'm pretty sure that in most european countries this is pretty OK -- yes there are gaps, holes, and sometimes just plain unjust or unfair processes.
I'm also pretty damn sure that for some countries this is way off. China is IMNSHO one of them.

() There are still people wandering about who say this and similar things who are not in jail. You much more likely would get in trouble if you call someone a "goat-fucker" (google erdogan and jan böhmermann).